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 Starters that won’t start

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Oz1200Guzzi
GustoGriso
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GustoGriso
Squinternotto
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Join date : 2021-10-06

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PostSubject: Starters that won’t start   Starters that won’t start Icon_minitime1Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:57 pm

GustoGriso
I’m new to the forum so bear with me.
I don’t know how many of 4 value 2007-2008 GRiSO 1040’s have had starter interuptus.
My GRiSO has eaten two starters in 14 years with only 13,500 miles on the clock.
It’s a great bike when it works, and a lump when it doesn’t.
My dealer, Cycles of Jacksonville was stumped too…took 10 weeks to figure out they didn’t
understand what was going on.
I happened to be on You Tube and found a work around for exactly the starter problem I had,
I shared this with the cycle shop and they called Moto Guzzi and they ‘admitted’ that there was an issue
with continuity and sent the dealer a schematic that gave the shop a way of fixing the situation.
As best I can describe, it was a bad wire that the factory substitute for whatever reason
the Wizzards of the Lake decided to do.
The fix isn’t expensive and it works, but I’m not a tech guy, so I can’t tell you exactly what they did.
It runs now. My baby is back…the thrill has returned.
Let me know if you have experienced the same problem.
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio
Oz1200Guzzi


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PostSubject: Re: Starters that won’t start   Starters that won’t start Icon_minitime1Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:04 pm

Most of us have. As you say, the fix is easy. Glad you are again riding.

This is your first post, so welcome to our little bit of madness. We need pics!

GustoGriso likes this post

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Kiwi_Roy
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Kiwi_Roy


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Join date : 2017-11-09

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PostSubject: Re: Starters that won’t start   Starters that won’t start Icon_minitime1Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:05 am

A good portion of Guzzis leave the factory hardwired to suffer from this stupid problem. They persist in feeding the start relay through the ignition switch, the Start relays (2) & (3) are connected to the starter solenoid that can draw 50 Amps for a split second as it slams the gear into mesh, below about 25 it just sits there.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The fix is to snip the yellow wire and feed the relays direct from the battery through a 20 Amp fuse.
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Starters that won’t start   Starters that won’t start Icon_minitime1Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:24 am

Unfortunately for me all those fixes while they reduced the issue didn't entirely negate it. Even changing the starter didn't fix it. The starter just pulls so much power to turn the engine especially when the engine is cold that with a conventional battery it still took multiple start attempts to start (dash blanking out) and the occasional burned fuse. I found rocking the bike in gear before starting helped but not always.
Only my new lithium battery puts out enough cranking power to 'force' the engine to start in 1 go and even it struggles sometimes with the dash blanking out. But since installing that the bike at least always starts and no burned fuses.
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Starters that won’t start   Starters that won’t start Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:46 am

You changed the starter and it still didn't work? I would be looking for a bad ground or main positive lead.
Measure the battery from post to post as it tries to crank and get back to us.
Jab your meter leads into the posts NOT the wires connecting to them.
Also try from the negative post to somewhere on the chassis while cranking, should stay at < 0.5 Volts.
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Starters that won’t start   Starters that won’t start Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:03 am

Kiwi_Roy wrote:
You changed the starter and it still didn't work? I would be looking for a bad ground or main positive lead.
Measure the battery from post to post as it tries to crank and get back to us.
Jab your meter leads into the posts NOT the wires connecting to them.
Also try from the negative post to somewhere on the chassis while cranking, should stay at < 0.5 Volts.

I've ready done all the tests you mention. Replaced the ground cable, switched ground points, everything basically. I've given up and now see it as a quirk of this motorcycle. The engine just takes more power than is normally the case to turn it when its cold or something.
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Starters that won’t start   Starters that won’t start Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:37 pm

On mine there was (yet) another problem that stopped my Startus-Interruptus fix working.

I had (stupidly) lubricated the moving parts of the solenoid when i stripped and checked and the lubricant seems to have been sealing around the solenoid and causing an effective air-spring - that slowed it down and increased the current draw.

wiped the oil off the solenoid and out of the housing and it was working better again - now i have a new battery it starts after one rotation. Not as eager to start as Ducati testratetta but I think that is down to starter gearing.
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not-fishing
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PostSubject: Re: Starters that won’t start   Starters that won’t start Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:15 pm

I have an '07 GRiSO with nearly 70,000 miles on the clock (I haven't ridden much in the last 3 years) and had another problem which may be part of yours.

After a 3 hour trip to fetch the GRiSO when my son had borrowed it, the starter would turn some and blow a fuse.  He tried it 4 times before he ran out of fuses.  I figured it was the fuel pump, pulled it out and the pump worked fine.  I replaced the fuel tank hoses, injector hoses no small cost and damned ethanol and tried to blow through the fuel filter.  The filter turned out to be plugged so I replaced it with a spare.  It seems like whenever I make a purchase from a parts shop I'm always buying a few extra things so I had one I bought 5 years ago

I wonder if the draw of the fuel pump would provide less power to the starter.  Butt no way am I an electrician
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Starters that won’t start   Starters that won’t start Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:40 am

Do a simple test, unplug the start relay and without turning the key On measure the relay socket for 12 Volts at Relay (2) terminal 3 or Relay (3) terminal 5, either with a multimeter or a simple 12 Volt lamp.
If its had the Startus Interuptus fix it will be alive otherwise if it's only alive with the key On, that's bad.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
BTW, this schematic along with all the other Guzzi schematics (all models) show the starter solenoid wrong, there are actually two coils inside every Guzzi solenoid not one. The solenoid will draw 50 Amps for a split second but it won't be able to do that if it has to go through the ignition switch, even with perfectly clean contacts the wiring will choke it down to ~ 30 Amps.
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Just to show you how the starter is supposed to crank over take a length of wire and crimp a spade connector on one end. Replace the wire to the spade connector on the starter solenoid. Making sure the bike is in Neutral, back wheel off the ground or with the clutch pulled in for safety touch the other end of the wire onto the battery positive terminal, if it turns over you have proven that there is nothing wrong with the starter, the battery and the battery connections.
Note you don't need the key turned on for this test.
If it doesn't turn over then you should test the battery connections, with the negative terminal of your meter fastened to a nice clean bolt.
While trying to crank over using this jumper lead measure the following
The battery Positive terminal - should be  at least 10 Volts
The battery Negative terminal - should be close to zero while trying to crank, it will go negative if the ground is loose.
Actually before even measuring the connections pull all 3 off and give them a scrape and apply some Vaseline or even grease, in particular where the main negative bolts to the gearbox behind the starter.
-------------------------------------------------
Why do the later Grisos have two Start relays, the early ones only had one and always crank, their single relay is always alive bypassing the ignition switch, my theory is the factory don't know it has two coils, not one schematic shows it and therefore don't know how much current it draws, in fact they only fit a 15 Amp fuse, that also tells me they think it only draws a little current the second relay is a bodge to get around the weak yellow wire.
Note: if your wiring has been fixed with an always live relay you should upgrade to a 20 Amp fuse, the solenoid will now draw 50 Amps just for a few milliseconds like it was designed to do. A 20 amp is adequate for the very short time both coils are engaged.
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