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 Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:33 pm

By all accounts and purposes they claim them unserviceable, and they are right well at least where the basic home mechanic is concerned.
Once the universal joint/bearing is fitted it cannot be removed, short of burning it out with a blow torch... untrue.
Melt the centre then push the bearings out... give it to an engineer they know how to remove it.

Unless someone knows otherwise? thankfull yes they do.

Mine was super tight on one axis but smooth on the other front gearbox end.
Rear is fluid and smooth.
Upon pressing the stiff bearing both ways it freed it up but showed the bearings were shagged.
Did the same with the fluid moving axis and it was still fluid and smooth.
There is insufficent room to push the bearing beyond the outside of the unit by more than a few mm.
That still leaves three quarters of the bearing in its recess.
You need to be able to remove the bearings two caps to release that side of the bearing from its structure.

So Pete what would be the symptoms of a stiff on one axis Universal Joint gearbox end any clues please ?
On a car it would refuse to steer in that direction or would be very heavy I know this as had one fail on the vectra.


Last edited by Buellbloke on Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:04 pm

We rebuild them regularly.

Once they seize the bearings disintegrate and the cups get beaten to pieces. Once that happens the yokes are shagged and you need a new shaft.

I suggest you take it to a prop shaft rebuilding specialist if such places still exist in the UK.
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:47 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
We rebuild them regularly.

Once they seize the bearings disintegrate and the cups get beaten to pieces. Once that happens the yokes are shagged and you need a new shaft.

I suggest you take it to a prop shaft rebuilding specialist if such places still exist in the UK.


Its only done 13thou thats like 22k to you in OZ. Stood a lot though.
Also had a 2 thou shim fitted on the knackered axis, nothing on the other side, could have so am informed thrown it off balance?
To buy a good used one from Gutsibits is £160 plus shipping, in the EU they go for similar up to £180.

How do you remove the UJ?

Place around the corner rebuilds axles and diiffs maybe they might sort it. Nope too busy and lacked confidence to inspire me to trust them with it.
Could be cheaper than £120 - £180, would rather keep my own as rear is perfect.
Yeo and Smith engineering been around since just after world war 2, these guys are long retired.
Local Number 01752/262776 No website and no mobile number is quality old skool.
£55 for an hours labour to remove and replace, they can source the bearing for extra though prefer being a bike you supply it which I did.
£40 with a nipple Italian build from specialist prop builder, him below.


Last edited by Buellbloke on Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:35 am; edited 6 times in total

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eeyore
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:50 am

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BrianD
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:48 pm

very useful to know - for the future - if I knacker the UJ.

Of course a CV joint conversion would be nice Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:26 pm

There is a lot of specialists in the UK doing propshafts none in or near Plymouth.
My local engineering firm who have been around forever, a place have had valve guides for GS1000's fitted and other stuff seemed really keen to jump on it.
Have got a decent used one lined up to for £160 should they fail to remove the UJ.
The UJ's themselves seem to go anywhere from £30 -£50 on average though obviously you can pay over £100. Lots of different varieties even ones specific for Guzzi's (no stock) though staked or crimped should be avoided in the case of the GRiSO as circlip.
The thing you have to realise is if you go to a specialist you could pay more than the £250 they cost new.


Last edited by Buellbloke on Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:38 am; edited 2 times in total
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:42 pm

eeyore wrote:
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" we cater for all sizes...... to the Sunbeam S8

lovely
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:50 pm

eeyore wrote:
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Spot on the Money  Cool



Turns out the UJ is 19mm Diameter and 48mm length.
It's not a rare UJ though the only place to have stock was "davemacprops" above.
It's also possibly worth mentioning it's made in Italy  Cool
Price was £40 inc shipping, comes with circlips and an almost inaccessible grease nipple.
Actually scrub that try to avoid buying UJ's with a grease nipple, there aint enough space to fit the f*cker in let alone access it after.

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The part with the splines is actually 48.3mm just and the main body (shaft) 48mm.
The UJ being an assembled part comes in around 48.1mm though thats probably the grease.
Moto Guzzi in their infinite wisdom stuck a 3thou shim on one end of the splined bit to make up the space instead of putting a 1 thou shim at either end.
The end result was the bearing was pushed off centre and slowly began to seize.
Defo worth checking yours if you ever service your swing arm bearings.

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Any experience of shims fitted on top of UJ bearings on GRiSO's Pete?


My local been around since the end of the 2nd World War Engineering Firm were keen to do the job.
£55 all in removed and refitted, I supplied the new UJ and shims.
Total price £95 as opposed to £160 plus shipping for a used good one from Gutsibits.
It's more satisfying getting something sorted than replacing it with something else used.
Would have preffered to remove and refit myself, only don't posses the one off use quite expensive tools.
Plus I struggled like f*ck removing the thing using the bench press I used to unseize my pivot bolt.
Sod knows how the Engineers got it out without destroying the thing, but then they are engineers and am just a f*cking Ape  Laughing


My knackered UJ and 2thou shim.

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Evilgarfield
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:54 am

Recently my GRiSO started making klanking noises when going on/off the throttle or when in neutral throttle with little load. After talkin with a local Guzzi dealer, he thinks this might be the UJ on my drive shaft. I'll try to find some time to take the shaft out and inspect it.

He is surprised that the joint would fail at only 40K km. Usually that happens at 3x times that amount of km.

Most replacement new parts are 800-900 euros around here. I found one in italy for 450 which is either a very good or slightly suspect offer, depending how trusty you are.
I also contacted a local drive shaft repair shop and they quoted 200 CHF for the replacement of the UJ. I might go down that route.

I will update once I have been able to inspect my shaft. "Funny" that my problem pops up a few month after Buellbloke had his issue.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:24 am

More likely to be either the gearbox Cush drive issue or the bushes in the torque arm.
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:43 pm

Good point. I tried to wiggle the reaction arm manually but did not feel any play. I will dismantle it and have a look at the bushings. Will it be obvious if they are worn or can a slight amount of play result in a noisy bike?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:09 pm

When does the noise occur? When slipping the clutch and pulling off?
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Evilgarfield
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:31 pm

More like if I'm coasting and only have very little throttle. For example maintaining 50 km/h in 3rd around 3000 RPM with the throttle barely open. Or when I go from open to close throttle and vice-versa. Basically when changing the load on the drive line.


No noise when the bike is in neutral with the clutch in or out. No noise when I'm accelerating, slipping the clutch or engine braking.
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:36 pm

Evilgarfield wrote:

He is surprised that the joint would fail at only 40K km. Usually that happens at 3x times that amount of km.

"Funny" that my problem pops up a few month after Buellbloke had his issue.

Depends if you've been unfair to me over certain comments even to thinking bad thoughts of me, I know people in very very high places will exact revenge on my part, just saying  Laughing

I had a stiffening of the front UJ on one axis, I put this down to the fact that the UJ was shimmed 3 thou on just one side of the failing axis.
It would not have been detected as sloppy play noisy or anything associated with neutral.
Was undetectable in normal use with bike fully assembled.
I do find there is partial take up when coasting in gear coming back on the throttle after coming off at low speeds, though find slipping the clutch eliminates this.
Its all part of clutch play on this style of tall gearbox I would imagine?
Or could be a failing Gearbox Cush as Pete suggests, got any pictures Pete or exact symptoms please?
My UJ had done 13K miles, any component can fail long before its normal service life, such is the way with mass produced mechanical items.
Hence why I suggest inspecting these components when performing the swing arm re-grease.

Failed bushes/Silent Bloc if you have one in the torque arm (front) make nasty clacking sounds that eminates from all over, it makes no difference to the gearbox though only makes this sound in low gears.
Its basically rattling about under extreme load at pullaway.

200 CHF  Shocked £162  Shocked I paid £50 for removal/fittment and £40ish for the UJ I purchased elsewhere, needed shimming which I supplied.
Used decent cardan shafts from Gutsibits are around £180.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:33 am

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Parts # 8 & 10, the primary gear and the collar, contain the face cam arrangement. It is preloaded by the stack of Bellville washers 13 but it supposed to be kept silent when unloaded by the wavy washers 11.

The problem was the Bellville stack is prone to collapse leading to the cam faces rattling against each other as insufficient preload is imparted by the wavy washers.

The factory fix was to add more wavy washers to increase the preload. Sometimes it works and quietens things down. Sometimes it doesn't.

With the advent of the single plate clutch with Cush springs in the plate in the 1200's the face cam shock absorber in the box was deleted. Oddly enough though it returned on the Cali 1400. The Cali 1400 doesn't have the bonded driveshaft of the CARC bikes though so it was probably deemed necessary again.

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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:22 am

Pete Roper wrote:
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Parts # 8 & 10, the primary gear and the collar, contain the face cam arrangement. It is preloaded by the stack of Bellville washers 13 but it supposed to be kept silent when unloaded by the wavy washers 11.

The problem was the Bellville stack is prone to collapse leading to the cam faces rattling against each other as insufficient preload is imparted by the wavy washers.

The factory fix was to add more wavy washers to increase the preload. Sometimes it works and quietens things down. Sometimes it doesn't.

With the advent of the single plate clutch with Cush springs in the plate in the 1200's the face cam shock absorber in the box was deleted. Oddly enough though it returned on the Cali 1400. The Cali 1400 doesn't have the bonded driveshaft of the CARC bikes though so it was probably deemed necessary again.

I don't own an 1100 so thats not me.
Evilgarfields issue sounds more like a failed front bush on the reaction arm.
Easier and significantly cheaper to sort than a failed UJ so defo look there first.
Most dealers dont know shit so worthless asking those f*ckers.
Ghetto has all you need  Cool

Thats common as f*ck on the 1100's


9mins 51secs in for clutch specifics
Some of his facts are way off the mark but its funny ...sortof






quote="Evilgarfield"

"Funny" that my problem pops up a few month after Buellbloke had his issue. [/quote]

Depends if you've been unfair to me over certain comments even to thinking bad thoughts of me, I know people in very very high places will exact revenge on my part, just saying  Laughing



Touch a Nerve Laughing Laughing
Its a joke wanker Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Thu May 19, 2022 2:03 pm

Small update on this. It took a long time to sort out (family, spare part availability, time etc..) but my problem is solved.

Thanks Pete for the infos on the cush drive. I made sure my model was not affected by that when buying  it. If you recall, we had a discussion about it in my "Who is you" post a year ago.

Knowing it would likely not be the cush drive causing the issue for me, I investigated the shaft and the reaction arm. I had regreased my frame bearing last year but left the shaft attached to the gearbox. Well this time I took it out...or tried. The thing was seized AF. It took a lot of swearing and sweating to separate it from the gearbox shaft. One I finally had it out, I could see that the mating surfaces were all dry (not a particle of grease present), slightly deformed and rusty. Luckily the gearbox has a harder finish and was intact. I sourced a 2nd hand drive shaft from a totaled, low mileage GRiSO and fitted it back on mine (with grease this time). Reassembled everything and went for a ride.

Tadaaa! The noise is gone and loading/unloading of the transmission is smooth as a baby's ass.

While I had the bike apart, I had a look at the reaction arm. No detectable play there but I saw that instead of the rubber silentbloc on the gearbox side, I have an old style spherical ball bearing that look like that:
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I ordered the new part and will replace it as soon as it arrives (and I can find someone with a press).

TLDR: not a cush drive, universal joint or torque arm bushing issue, but a seized drive shaft on the gearbox side.
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Tue May 24, 2022 12:15 pm

Evilgarfield wrote:
Small update on this. I had regreased my frame bearing last year but left the shaft attached to the gearbox. Well this time I took it out...or tried. The thing was seized AF. It took a lot of swearing and sweating to separate it from the gearbox shaft. One I finally had it out, I could see that the mating surfaces were all dry (not a particle of grease present), slightly deformed and rusty. Luckily the gearbox has a harder finish and was intact. I sourced a 2nd hand drive shaft from a totaled, low mileage GRiSO and fitted it back on mine (with grease this time). Reassembled everything and went for a ride.

Tadaaa! The noise is gone and loading/unloading of the transmission is smooth as a baby's ass.

While I had the bike apart, I had a look at the reaction arm. No detectable play there but I saw that instead of the rubber silentbloc on the gearbox side, I have an old style spherical ball bearing that look like that:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I ordered the new part and will replace it as soon as it arrives (and I can find someone with a press).

TLDR: not a cush drive, universal joint or torque arm bushing issue, but a seized drive shaft on the gearbox side.

What was the condition of the UJ at that end moving freely or seized?
Dry splines is not uncommon I would imagine, there is also a circlip holding the drive shaft to the gearbox.
Personally wouldnt have thought would cause the symptoms you mentioned.
That speherical ball bearing is wrong, should either be original bush with fat o-rings or replaced with a silent bloc.

Original
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Silent bloc
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PostSubject: Re: Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive   Moto Guzzi Shaft Drive Icon_minitime1Tue May 24, 2022 2:01 pm

The UJ was fine and smooth on all axis.

Yes I don't know how that ball bearing ended up in there. Looking online I've not seen anything like that attached to a toque arm on a GRiSO. I wonder what happened there. The previous owner is not the original one and apparently never touched that. Anyway, the part should be there soon. I'v ordered the silent bloc and it should arrive soon.
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