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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:23 am

Hi all thanks for the addition to the forum...I'm presently swapping an engine from a 2016 GRiSO se into a 2021 Norge so I will be looking for pointers and advice ....steve
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:34 am

A 2021 Norge? Hmm, he says, Norge have been out of production for 10 years or so. Obviously there is a story and we would love to hear it. Oh and welcome.

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:14 am

I'm guessing 2012? Why the need for the swap? Flat tappets not caught in time?
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PostSubject: Re: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:24 am

Uh, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ?

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
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2012 MOTO GUZZI GRiSO 1200SE

2013 MOTO GUZZI STELVIO 1200NTX - Orange Blossom Special

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PostSubject: Re: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:31 am

Sorry 2012 Norge....no I have an insurance write off GRiSO and my buddy has the Norge wit a banging noise from the bottom end so we just thought swap the motors....see if it's possible
I'm told Pete Roper on here is the go to guy.
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PostSubject: Re: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:09 am

He is. Pete and Beetle are gods in their own ways but one is grumpier than the other.

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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:45 pm

Papa Lazarou wrote:
He is. Pete and Beetle are gods in their own ways but one is grumpier than the other.

At risk of upsetting both, who is grumpier?

From my perspective I find neither grumpy, just intolerant of fools, as am I.

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:24 pm


Me. I'm the grumpiest. And I ain't no god.

I responded on your Faecesbook post, thusly...


The 8V engines are identical on Stelvio/GRiSO/Norge. Be aware if you are swapping the entire motive unit (engine & gearbox), the Norge gearbox has different ratios.






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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:15 pm

Just hang on a minute there!!!

Before you embark on the complete engine swap there may be a much simpler solution to the engine knock!

One of the classic symptoms of a failed sump spacer gasket is low oil pressure and consequent accelerated wear of the big ends. Once this occurs the oil can't form a wedge and as the engine warms up and thins out the knock will begin. It tends to be really noticeable on the overrun when blipping the throttle.

Now while, If it's left long enough, it can cause rod damage, it is also often quite easily curable.

First drop off the sump and spacer. This will tell you if the gasket has blown out. If, as I suspect it has, you have two options. The first one is simply replace the spacer gasket with the aftermarket 'Thick, green' type and reassemble, fill with oil and run. If you've caught the issue early enough this may be sufficient to cure the problem but you will probably still be left with a compromised big end that will have a diminished life span.

The second one is to not stop at the gasket but to drop the caps off the connecting rods, push the rods and pistons up the boreas and flick the big end shells out. Examine the crankpin carefully and if it shows any signs of contamination with bearing shell material you can give it a 'Poor man's linish' with 1800 grade wet and dry tape being careful to clean the pin carefully when done.

The crank and bearings are colour coded so check the bearing shells and on the sides of the bearings there should still be visible a blue or red line. Order four of the same from your Guzzi dealer and install them in the rods and caps. Make sure the rod and cap faces are spotlessly clean as you install them, (This is quite possible from underneath the engine in the case of the rods.) and make sure you DO NOT mix up the rods and caps as the rod and its cap are ground as a pair. Do NOT put any oil or lubricant between the bearing shell and the rod and cap but smear the crankpin liberally with assembly lube before pulling the rods back down onto the crankpin, installing the caps and installing the rod bolts and torquing them down in three steps to their required torque. At each step use a 24mm socket on the crank nut on the front of the crank to make sure the bearings aren't binding on the crank, just rock it a few degrees, no need to turn it far.

Once the rod bolts are torqued and you're sure the crank will turn freely reassemble the sump and spacer, (With the new, thick gasket betwixt spacer and block.) fill with fresh oil, remove plugs and disconnect coils and injectors and spin the motor on the starter for 20-40 seconds or until the 'Oil can' icon disappears on the dashboard. (Pre fill the oil filter and don't worry about the 'Service' warning on the dash. That will go away when you reconnect the coils and injectors.)

Reconnect the coils and injectors. Pray to Carlo and hit the 'Go' button and it should fire up. Let it run for five minutes and be amazed Bt the fact it no longer sounds like Vulcan forging thunderbolts when you blip the throttle!

Now if the crankpin is scored or blued? Forget it. Likewise if the bearing shells are melted and the rods discoloured? Forget it. I'll bet a box full of beehives though it'll fix it and it'll be a LOT easier than swapping the motor!

Having said that if the 2012 motor is a flat tappet engine then you can save yourself some heartache by swapping the motors complete as the '16 donk will be a factory roller job. 2012 was the swap year from flat to roller and if it is a flattie there will be extra expense involved in rollerising the Norge lump.

One further point. The later GRiSO motor will use the Cali 14 sump and there might be a couple of accessory mounting issues, (Oil cooler and the like.) that differ between the two but the engines themselves are mechanically the same in all important ways. As Mark pointed out the Norge has higher fifth and sixth gears than the GRiSO so if you swap the whole motive unit the gearing will be ever so slightly lower in the top two gears. Not something likely to be the slightest of issues in Ireland or even mainland Europe!

I find this idea that I might be grumpy somewhat baffling? I have a low tolerance for bullshit but I'm not grumpy.


Last edited by Pete Roper on Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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PostSubject: Re: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:27 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Just hang on a minute there!!!

Before you embark on the complete engine swap there may be a much simpler solution to the engine knock!

One of the classic symptoms of a failed sump spacer gasket is low oil pressure and consequent accelerated wear of the big ends. Once this occurs the oil can't form a wedge and as the engine warms up and thins out the knock will begin. It tends to be really noticeable on the overrun when blipping the throttle.

Now while, If it's left long enough, it can cause rod damage, it is also often quite easily curable.

First drop off the sump and spacer. This will tell you if the gasket has blown out. If, as I suspect it has, you have two options. The first one is simply replace the spacer gasket with the aftermarket 'Thick, green' type and reassemble, fill with oil and run. If you've caught the issue early enough this may be sufficient to cure the problem but you will probably still be left with a compromised big end that will have a diminished life span.

The second one is to not stop at the gasket but to drop the caps off the connecting rods, push the rods and pistons up the boreas and flick the big end shells out. Examine the crankpin carefully and if it shows any signs of contamination with bearing shell material you can give it a 'Poor man's linish' with 1800 grade wet and dry tape being careful to clean the pin carefully when done.

The crank and bearings are colour coded so check the bearing shells and on the sides of the bearings there should still be visible a blue or red line. Order four of the same from your Guzzi dealer and install them in the rods and caps. Make sure the rod and cap faces are spotlessly clean as you install them, (This is quite possible from underneath the engine in the case of the rods.) and make sure you DO NOT mix up the rods and caps as the rod and its cap are ground as a pair. Do NOT put any oil or lubricant between the bearing shell and the rod and cap but smear the crankpin liberally with assembly lube before pulling the rods back down onto the crankpin, installing the caps and installing the rod bolts and torquing them down in three steps to their required torque. At each step use a 24mm socket on the crank nut on the front of the crank to make sure the bearings aren't binding on the crank, just rock it a few degrees, no need to turn it far.

Once the rod bolts are torqued and you're sure the crank will turn freely reassemble the sump and spacer, (With the new, thick gasket betwixt spacer and block.) fill with fresh oil, remove plugs and disconnect coils and injectors and spin the motor on the starter for 20-40 seconds or until the 'Oil can' icon disappears on the dashboard. (Pre fill the oil filter and don't worry about the 'Service' warning on the dash. That will go away when you reconnect the coils and injectors.)

Reconnect the coils and injectors. Pray to Carlo and hit the 'Go' button and it should fire up. Let it run for five minutes and be amazed Bt the fact it no longer sounds like Vulcan forging thunderbolts when you blip the throttle!

Now if the crankpin is scored or blued? Forget it. Likewise if the bearing shells are melted and the rods discoloured? Forget it. I'll bet a box full of beehives though it'll fix it and it'll be a LOT easier than swapping the motor!

Having said that if the 2012 motor is a flat tappet engine then you can save yourself some heartache by swapping the motors complete as the '16 donk will be a factory roller job. 2012 was the swap year from flat to roller and if it is a flattie there will be extra expense involved in rollerising the Norge lump.

Thank you that is a fabulous piece of information I will tell my buddy about what you said and leave the final answer to him....thanks again

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:38 pm

If you, or he, have any questions you can always email me and I'll try to help if I can.

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PostSubject: Re: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:17 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
If you, or he, have any questions you can always email me and I'll try to help if I can.

Thank you.
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:27 pm

Grumpy not. Helpful yes. If you don't listen, you will be ostracised immediately.

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 26, 2022 5:54 pm

Just to give a few pointers.

This is the sump gasket that gives no problems.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

And this is the good aftermarket spacer gasket that won't blow out.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Where the shitty factory gasket blows out is around the largest of the delivery galleries at the bottom left in the picture. I'll see if I can find a pic of a blown one.

A picture of a big end shell. Note the dab of paint denoting it's size.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

And here's the other size!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

And if the paint has washed off you can see what size the crankpin is by the paint mark on the crank web.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Can't find a pic of the blown out gasket. Sorry.




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Spondonsteve
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PostSubject: Re: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:48 am

Thank you for all your help
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Buellbloke
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PostSubject: Re: Thanks for the addition    Thanks for the addition  Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:58 am

Papa Lazarou wrote:
Pete and Beetle are gods in their own ways but one is grumpier than the other.

Nearly spat my coffee out Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil

Not my gods either of them, very useful and informative when on their good side.
Pete Roper is affable.
Beetle not so much Laughing
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