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 Leking oil, need advice

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:16 pm

My GRiSO (2017 GRiSO SE 1200 in the US) has been down for a while with a dead battery. Been waiting to have the money for a Li-Ion, and finally got it installed, and running. After riding into work, I noticed I now have an oil leak. From my detective work it looks like it is coming from a loose connection at a black box under the front of the frame below the triple clamp. On the left side, when I remove the panel between the frame rail and the left cylinder head, I can see a cloth covered hose that is soaked in oil that is dripping down on the left cylinder, and eventually makes its way down to the exhaust.
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In the picture above the leak seems to be coming from the circled connection. This is after my first attempt to fix it. Originally the hose was back about 3mm from where it is now, so I thought maybe it was coming loose. pressing it on further seemed like it worked sitting in my driveway. However, after riding it again it was definitely still leaking, maybe worse.

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This picture is from a bit further back, you can see the location of the box better. I am suspecting this is a condenser for the EGR? The 2 silver spots you can see are hose clamps going into the top of the same box. They come from the cylinder head of the left and right cylinders. I am wondering why they have screw down hose clamps but the line in question seems to have a crimped-on hose clamp?

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This picture shows the line coming from the left cylinder head up to the box in question.

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I believe this is the line that is leaking and seems to go to the sump.

So, the big questions i have, is this a drain for a condenser? In other words if i remove this line to see the problem in better detail will i have a mess of oil? or will it just be a little residual oil?

If the hose is split, how hard is it to run a new one? it seems to go threw every tiny tight space possible, but seems like it might be possible to run a new line up through there without disassembling anything? The bigger part of that question can i do it in my driveway with basic tools, i am pretty mechanically inclined, but don't want to tear into it to find i need some special tools, or i have to disassemble major components.

I am also wondering does anyone have a feel for how likely it is the hose, or maybe the clamp is not tight enough, or maybe the nipple on the box is broke? Less concerned about an answer to that because as long as i can pull the line off without making a mess I'll soon enough have an answer, and I know it could be any of those, just thinking maybe this is a common leak.
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Tim Henry
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:52 pm

Common leak my old 15 did it alot the vent hose to the separator box splits I eventually found some silicone hose used on Ferraris by the foot and made a spring to stop the hose collapsing at the bend it lasted alittle longer than stock . So eventually I used a piece of copper tube and the hose set up and lasted about longer than a year till I crashed it no pictures

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 20, 2023 7:52 pm

This isn't an ERG system, simply an engine breather and oil return system.

The crankcase vents through the two hoses off the back of the heads up to condensor box behind the steering head. From there the condensate drains back to the sump via the cloth covered hose that is crimped to the pipe that connects to the sump.

The gas component, (And residual oil vapour.) of the crankcase gasses is then sent through the top hose from the right of the condensor box to the airbox where it is re-breathed through the motor.

I've not had too many problems with the cloth covered return hose but if yours is cracked and leaking my suggestion would be to pull the tank and remove it and take it to a hose shop where they will be able to re-use the pipe part at the bottom and crimp a new hose in place on it. If you explain its purpose they will be able to use an oil resistant type of hose.

Unfortunately when you remove the pipe fitting from the sump you will loose all the oil. If it's fresh you could catch it in a clean container and re-use it after the hose is replaced but really it's not that expensive, I'd just drain it and refill with new to avoid the risk of contamination.

It is unlikely that the spigot on the condensor box is broken but not impossible. It will be much easier to see once the tank is off. Normally all these hoses are clamped with Oetiker clamps rather than spiral hose clamps but since few people have oetiker pliers they often get substituted with more mundane and conventional clamps. Whatever you use the trick is not to overtighten them!

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Tim Henry
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:08 pm

On my 15 it initially looked like return pipe leak but it was the breather hose that saturated the wrap of the return so I originally thought it was return. I cleaned it with brakecleaner afterwards to confirm. Both breather hoses failed within a week of eachother. I also road that bike daily in florida heat alot of miles a year I recall reading about those hoses failing and also the condom which never leaked on mine

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JohnA
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 21, 2023 6:08 am

Same for me as Tim. Wasn’t the return hose but another leaking on to it. Like Pete said, you’ll need to at least loosen the tank and tip it up and put something underneath to hold it up while you do surgery. I’ve had to do this twice, so last time I bought auto parts hose big enough to go over the spigot and spliced it into the hose that runs into the back of the engine -the curved hose in your picture.The OEM hoses are expensive and can be old when you get them and pretty hard to get on -my experience.

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Tim Henry
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 21, 2023 6:39 am

I made a spring to put inside the hose to prevent kinking like on radiator hoses it worked for the remainder I had it . My 07 1100 apparently has the similar system but it hasn't done the same as the 8v and I've put about 10k miles on it since I got it a year ago

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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 21, 2023 5:41 pm

Thanks everyone for the information... nice to know i was basically right... aside from me confusing crank case ventilation and EGR. A colleague at work suggested as a band aid putting tie wraps on the hose till, I fix it. It seemed like out worked for a few miles, but then started leaking again. May have to look and see if it is the other hose, you guys are talking about. I don't have a lot of miles on the oil, but it did get a few hundred miles in before the bike sat all winter and much of the summer waiting for a new battery, so might be good to change it for fresh oil.
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Tim Henry
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 21, 2023 6:09 pm

They leak oil vapor so the bandaid won't hold
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 22, 2023 3:17 pm

OK, so I just lifted the tank Like Pete suggested. I noticed that the lines from the Cylinder head into the tank, as well as the 'condom' as Tim calls it seem to be glued in place, as well as having the band clamps on them. Makes me wonder why this line is not glued on as well. Why the crimped clamp instead of a screw down band clamp? The 'condom' had a little bit of oil on it, but nothing like the hose in question. I can't see any defects with it, and since it is glued on I don't think I want to touch it. I am the first owner, but the dealer I purchased it from I would not recommend, the only thing they had going for them was price, and other members here got better prices through better dealers with some good old haggling. So I do wonder, is this normal that the hoses are glued on, or did the dealer make their own upgrades because they saw issues in this area? I have to say the barb on the nipple of the tank is almost useless. I can see why it would leak, between that and the slight bend the hose makes. A little heat and drying of the rubber is just begging for a leak.

I don't see any significant issue with the hose itself, no split end. I did insert a plug for the night to keep moisture and dirt from getting in during the night and the hose does seem to be stretched a little as the plug went in easy for about 1 inch then got tight. I am really wondering what people's thoughts on sealing this the way the others are, glue, and a screw type hose clamp? It does look like a good way to get a good seal, just worried about unintended issues.
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 22, 2023 3:26 pm


Glue? Really? Got a pic?

Don't use glue. The Oetiker clamps are really quite good. Most people don't have them in their home tool kit, so regular hose clamps get used. T-bolt clamps are better, but somewhat bulky to use in areas that are tight for space.



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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 22, 2023 3:29 pm

I used a screw clamp . Mine were not glued . My hoses split about 1/2 down towards resr and the other at rear bend
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 22, 2023 7:57 pm

beetle wrote:

Glue? Really? Got a pic?


I'll get a pic tomorrow. I'll add I am using glue in a broad sense, since i don't know exactly what it is. What I can say is I used to work with Mil spec sealed electrical connectors, you'd put all your wires with pins into the connector, and then heat it up with a heat gun before tightening the strain relief. The heat would soften a sealant and when you tightened the strain relief some of the sealant would ooze out from the gaps between the strain relief and the cable. What i saw looked very similar, was a reddish-brown hard material that was clearly coming from under the hose. It was hard so not a drop of oil or something. I'll take a picture of it. and post it.

Seems that my bike has had something done to it by someone. My guess the dealer I purchased it from and not Moto Guzzi. I am asking here, because i have never seen or heard of anything like this, and I can very much imagine the wrong thing causing lots of problems if it gets into the oil. On the other hand a product specifically designed for such a purpose seams like a decent idea... as long as you don't need to remove the line.
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:10 pm

Tim Henry wrote:
I used a screw clamp . Mine were not glued . My hoses split about 1/2 down towards resr and the other at rear bend

Hmm that's an interesting thought. Typically, I have seen hoses either stretch or split at the connection, but never considered a split further down the line. Would hate to deal with that situation.
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:32 pm

I believe its just the hot vapor that deteriorates them but thats what happened to mine at first I just replaced them then I found some silicone hose that held up but still split in sme places always near valve cover and the spigot to head so I added copper tube in the central portion wit minor bending so I only had short hoses to deal with had over a year of no leak till the bike was totalled out
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 23, 2023 8:23 am

beetle wrote:

Glue? Really? Got a pic?



OK, now i have some pics.

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in the pic it is easiest to see in the lower one as it is better illuminated, but there is also the same thing on the upper one. It is hard like epoxy or something. At first I thought is was some kind of grease and tried to wipe it away but I'd need to scrape it away it's hard. I have found some comments on diesel truck site about sealing radiator hoses with Permatex, specifically Indianhead shellac.

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Here are the hose clamps that have been put on, not the Oetiker type clamps that I see elsewhere.

I have to admit, I'm really thinking if done very carefully to ensure none of the sealant or glue gets into the line and especially the oil and oil system. it does seem like a decent idea. I am sure I am being crazy in thinking this but take the line off completely at both ends. install the line halfway onto the nipple, then adding a sealant that's high temp and oil compatible to the second half, being careful to apply a small amount. Slide the hose on the rest of the way and clamp it down. Once it has completely cured, and maybe then some, hook up the other end at the sump. The only thing probably keeping me from doing that is fear that it is not high temp enough or I am not careful enough in keeping it out of the oil system, as a little of that in the oil could be bad news i know that.

I am most likely leaning towards finding a small bit of hose, a union, and some Oetiker clamps, and make a small bit of hose to go from the tank to some place more accessible. and attaching to the existing line. That way if it leaks again, I can just replace that small sacrificial piece easily enough.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:23 pm

Top pic looks like it's some sort of shitty Silastic/gasket sealant. Perhaps a bodied attempt to stop the leak to sell the bike?

Anyway do make sure your oil level is no more than a third of the way up the stick between the 'Add' and 'Full' marks as ant higher will result in lots being pumped out and recirculated through the breather system and that won't be helping.
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 23, 2023 8:24 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Top pic looks like it's some sort of shitty Silastic/gasket sealant. Perhaps a bodied attempt to stop the leak to sell the bike?

Seems unlikely, I am the first owner, and it had 17mi on the odometer, when I got it. I think more likely is the dealership had seen these issues before and came up with this as their fix and they did it to new bikes before selling them as a preventative measure. Looking at the angle it makes coming out of the vent box and then turning to go past the frame and back over the left cylinder I can see why it would fail over time. Anytime you have a turn right after a connection you're just asking for a leak regardless. I got this bike from a Dealer in Las Vegas, and I can imagine the heat of the desert would accelerate the leak. I just hope they did not get any of the glue or sealant into the oil system, as long as they were careful to avoid that I'm ok with it. I just hope I never need to take those hoses off the box.

For the moment I picked up a bit of fuel line hose, a union and some Oetiker clamps. Added a small piece off the box to the union, trimmed back the old hose about 4in and put it on the other end of the union, and clamped it all together. The hose I got was very tight going onto the union, pretty tight onto the box as well, although slightly easier than onto the union. The Factory hose onto the Union went on the easiest but was tighter then onto the vent box. If it fails again, I'll only have a short bit to replace, or I may consider taking Tim's route of running a copper line with rubber bits on either end. Now I just need to clean everything up and get it all back together.

Thanks for all the advice it was very helpful, and informative as always.
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Tim Henry
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 23, 2023 8:40 pm

My copper tube fix in my opinion is the most durable repair i had some  heavy stainless safety wire that i coiled around a phillips scewdriver and slid it inside the section of hose tha bent around to the rear of cylinder . No copper was visible out side the body work. I too live in hot climate and rode it as my only bike daily which I continue to do with my current 07 GRiSO which doesn't leak like the 15 did also the 07 Calvin was leak free other than fom the phase sensor. Fuel line didn't hold up and was difficult to get on the spigot of the seperator box with little clearance to access clamps . I wish I took pics and posted them years ago. Find a hose supplier and get silicone hose . Exotic cars like old Ferraris used some
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:11 pm

Yikes! I'm not so sure using a sealant is the best way. Decent clamps or Oetikers work fine. Misting/oozing always occurs on mine over time, but not enough to be a concern.

I made my own oil return hose with Aeroflow braided hose and a non-return valve.

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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:27 pm

When my hose initially leaked on the 15 8v it saturated the hose leading to the return I too thought it was source. No sealant was on mine either as I was also 1st owner this is first time reading about sealant used on separator lines Mr. Roper would have more experience regarding that.My step dad has some aerospace tubing from Spaceshuttle I'll try to see if he has some correct size and find a source to purchase as he won't want to part with any other than a few pieces I use on my GRiSO for vaccuum lines it should hold up to temp and oil
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 03, 2023 2:23 pm

The braided hose looks to be the go. Why the non return valve ?
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 03, 2023 7:04 pm

evansnows wrote:
The braided hose looks to be the go. Why the non return valve ?


The sump has quite a bit of pressure. Pull the dipstick and stick your thumb over the hole with the engine running and you'll see what I mean. It's even worse on the 1400. The non-return valve is to stop oil being pushed up the pipe.





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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 03, 2023 7:11 pm

Understood but why is there not a non return valve on the standard set up ?
I like the idea of replacing the hose with a braided version but would prefer to keep it simple
if possible
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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 03, 2023 7:59 pm


I've no idea why there isn't a non-return valve in the stock setup. Except maybe because Piaggio are cheap? The breather/collector box doesn't even have a flapper or step to seperate the oil, so it's basically..well, basic.




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PostSubject: Re: Leking oil, need advice   Leking oil, need advice Icon_minitime1Thu Oct 05, 2023 7:41 am

Seems like others have already addressed the bulk of this, still I'll mention it because I dealt with this exact issue two months ago on my 2014 GRiSO.

First I had thought the breather nipple was leaking - it wasn't. In my case both of my rubber breather hoses were dripping oil after sitting and cracking for 10 years. I ended up buying replacement hoses instead of using generic auto hoses as at the time many people suggested that the 180 degree bend radius necessary to feed the hose into the cylinder head would be difficult to achieve without pre-bending on the hose.

The braided hose on my bike was not the source of the leak - it seems that these rarely leak. It's easy to think its the source since it sits directly below the breather tubes and tend to 'soak' the recirculated oil.

As I said I replaced each of the breather tubes and the nipple and used all-new ring clamps. I have not had any leaking oil issues since.

HOWEVER the process of fitting those new oil breather lines onto the nipples of the breather box is something I would not wish on my worst enemy. I did it without lifting the tank and it took me several days of heating the rubber up with a hair dryer and force-fitting it onto ratchet socket's of increasing size and a huge amount of dish soap to lubricate it when twisting it on. I have never wished ill-will onto anyone as much as I wished it upon the italian engineers that thought it was necessary to fit such a comically small inside diameter on such an impossibly large outside nipple diameter. My only comfort is knowing that I will inevitably have to do it all again when the new hoses crack and fail.

It's worth it though, the GRiSO is an awesome machine : )
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