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 Throotle Body Time

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JohnA
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Matias
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PostSubject: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:10 am

Hi everyone,

Finally I went for the TB cleanning. I had some time today, the weather was bad, so no excuses....

I didn't took the airbox out, but almost...All the hoses stayed connected, but I removed the two bolts on the snorkel side to be able to move ithe airbox around.
I understand you know Paul. It's a pain in the neck to get those TBs out from the rubbers...But it worked in the end...

Lots of comments and questions:

Even though I have been very carefull with the oild level (never going above 1/3 min max), I still see some signs of oil in the airbox and the blow-by canister in the front (picts below). Is this normal?
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I have disassembled the injectors and pulled out tank+fuel-lines+injectors. Everything came out very smoothly, but....I have a kink in the fuel-line coming from the quick-release. I don´t believe it happened this time because everything came out smoothly like I said and the fuel-lines were pressurized (stiffer). It must have happened a year ago when I changed the inner spark-plugs, and was desperatly trying to get access and disconnect that evil quick-release. And now?...Is this a problem or am I good to go?
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Finally I got the TBs out. They are not so bad as I imagined, but I still see carbon residuals enough on those selaing edges of the butterfly valve to cause some disturbance. Tomorrow I will buy the carburator cleanning spray and work on it. Any problem blowing some compressed air through those air bleed channels?
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I was working on the bike I noticed oil around the inner plug from the left cylinder. The plug was not too tigh, but also not loose. Also the oil was too fresh and red (Motul oil). It seemed to be coming from a hole above the plug hole (see picture). What is this hole? Is it connecting with the valve rocker chamber? Is there a plug on this hole, that can be leaking?
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Thanks in advance for your inputs guys...

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:10 pm

There is always likely to be some evidence of oil in the airbox. The question is how much? As long as it isn't pooling around the drain you're basically OK. Remember there is a constant flow of gas out of the engine, there is always going to be some particulate matter that won't get separated out by the condensor system and returned to the sump, the aim is to minimise it. The only way to eliminate it completely would be to not put any oil in the engine and if you try that it will squeak. Razz

As for the kinked fuel line? Just make sure when you reinstall it this time it is positioned in such a way it isn't kinked. Those pipes are remarkably hardy and will put up with a lot of abuse. Unless it is showing signs of imminent failure I'd just keep an eye on it and check it every time the tank is off.

The oil weep is interesting. That orifice it's coming from is in fact the *old* position for the rocker oil feed line. As you are probably aware the head castings on the 2V CARC bikes are identical to pretty much every other squarefin Guzzi going back to the mid eighties. What makes the oiling system different is the point at which the oil feed lines are tapped into the galleries in the head to deliver lubrication and cooling to the rocker gear. On the earlier bikes the pipe went into a spigot screwed into that hole 'Central' to the back of the head, but with the last of the 2V motors the use and installation of the second, inner, spark plug meant that the oil feed had to be relocated. That involved a minor redesign of the casting dies that are used to form the heads but, in typical Guzzi fashion, the old bosses and spigots weren't deleted.

This has long been standard practice on many cast parts. If you look at the timing chest cover on a V11 Sport you'll se it has a couple of random cast in pipes and a 'Lump' at the top. That's because the V11 Sport timing chest cover is in fact a re-purposed V1000-I Convert casting which used to contain the pump and feed lines for the torque converter! But I digress.

The thing is if there is leakage from that hole it must mean that there is some casting flaw that is allowing oil to get through from the internal gallery. It's obviously not *Bad* or the head, cylinder and valley of the motor would be awash with oil and without a head in my hands to examine I can't be sure how the oil feed galleries run or if there is plug at the bottom of that hole, (I don't think there is. Hence my guess of a casting flaw.) but whatever the cause my suggestion for a fix would simply be to clean it up as thoroughly as you can using first degreaser and finally some form ov very volatile contact cleaner to try and remove all traces of oil and then just seal it by stuffing it full of some sort of epoxy like JB Weld and letting it cure for a few days before starting the engine and getting it hot. Heat cycle it a few times and see if the leak is cured. If it is? Forget about it.

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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Mon Nov 27, 2023 5:41 pm

I found that putting a little oil/grease on the rubbers (in the groove) makes it easier to seat when putting the box back together.  Also, since the rubbers rotate, you can use that as well to help position, and then go "around the clock" to reseat the grooved section by gently pushing it in until it's completely seated properly with one lip inside the box and one lip outside the box.  

Once you get the green pliers, you'll see how easy it is to remove the fuel quick disconnect...it probably should be renamed to pain in the ass disconnect (unless you have the tool).  Smile Smile
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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:23 am

OK Pete. I will try to take a look with the phone camera after cleanning the area, and see if there is any plug in there. If I don't see anything I will try to seal it somehow...

OK JP, I will lubricate those rubbers a bit. Amazingly, when the tank was out I was able to open the quick-release at the first try Rolling Eyes ....

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BetaSteve
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:52 pm

I am either misunderstanding some of the terminology or the talk of an inner plug means the last rendition of the 8V GRiSO had 4 spark plugs?
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:25 pm

BetaSteve wrote:
I am either misunderstanding some of the terminology or the talk of an inner plug means the last rendition of the 8V GRiSO had 4 spark plugs?

Hi Steve.
The 1100 4V has 2 spark plugs per cylinder. Not sure about the 1200 8V....
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:37 pm

Hi Pete.

About the oil weep...
I noticed today that, aligned with that hole where the oil seems to be comming from, there is a big Allen bolt, one of the bolts used to close the cylinder head, I believe (pict below)
Looking at the parts catalogue, I see a big plug (I marked it red) in that direction...
Maybe this plug is removed to give access to that bolt with a torque wrench...
The image shows a O-ring in that plug, and it could have blown away... What do you think?[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I will open the valve cover tomorrow to take a look...I just hope it is not necessary to disassemble everything to have access to it pale
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:46 pm

Oh that is very much a possibility. Well spotted. I was busy looking at the old oiling boss, didn't think about the o-ring on the blanking plug. Yup, they go quite often. So easy to change and may cure it very simply. There is nothing special about the o-ring. Just take the blanking plug down to the bearing shop and match something up. It's best to use Viton but as it's simply a crush seal and doesn't net disturbed Nitrile will work fine.
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:49 pm

BetaSteve wrote:
I am either misunderstanding some of the terminology or the talk of an inner plug means the last rendition of the 8V GRiSO had 4 spark plugs?

Nope. 8V's all have a single central plug. The exceptions being the Cali 1400's which have two.
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:54 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Oh that is very much a possibility. Well spotted. I was busy looking at the old oiling boss, didn't think about the o-ring on the blanking plug. Yup, they go quite often. So easy to change and may cure it very simply. There is nothing special about the o-ring. Just take the blanking plug down to the bearing shop and match something up. It's best to use Viton but as it's simply a crush seal and doesn't net disturbed Nitrile will work fine.

Pete, it's not clear to see on the exploded view...Is it necessary to disassemble the rocker bracket to take that plug out?
In case yes, is it complicated?.....
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 28, 2023 3:10 pm

....and if it's not asking too much, can you tell me the torque values for those rockers bolts and nuts?...
I looked for them in the manual, but they are not easy to identify....
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 28, 2023 4:18 pm

No need to remove anything. Just use a long 10mm Allen socket and a breaker bar as the plug will be tight. Swing on the bar to snap the plug loose, they tend to be very tight. It's worth giving the edge of the plug around the hex a few taps with a hammer and punch to break any corrosion before trying to break it free.
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 28, 2023 10:08 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
No need to remove anything. Just use a long 10mm Allen socket and a breaker bar as the plug will be tight. Swing on the bar to snap the plug loose, they tend to be very tight. It's worth giving the edge of the plug around the hex a few taps with a hammer and punch to break any corrosion before trying to break it free.

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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:41 am

The O-ring on that plug is completely flatenned...and has hardenned...
I guess this is it....
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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Thu Nov 30, 2023 1:02 am

Guys, I am frustrated as hell, and regretting not listenning to JohnA...
After going through all this work, and having big expectations for the results, the engine is running terribly....Anyone knows how to put back carbon deposits on the TBs?
After the assembly, the engine started with a couple of turns and was stable.
I connected GuzziDiag, the Carbtune, and warmed the engine up for TB balancing.
When it reached 55ºC I started reving up to 3500-4000 for balancing and it went crazy....
It started dropping down in revs, backfiring, afterfiring dropping revs and shutdown....I had to wait for a while to be able to start the bike again...
The TBs are balanced, the TPS was reset, there are no eeror messages on the dash.
The bike has a random behavior. Sometimes it works perfectly, sometimes it's caos.
It seems to get worse as the engine temperature rises. I had a colling fan turned to the engine and was monitoring the temperature in GuzziDiag (around 70ºC). Is there a way to check if the temperature measurement is correct?
Sometimes the engine was going down and stop has if it was seizing. I got really worried. I took the plugs out, pushed the bike in gear, and everything was running smoothly.
I saw sometime ago a post from someone who faced problems after a TB cleanning too. I was looking for it, but couldn't find it.
Has anyone gone through something like this? Any thoughts?
Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Thu Nov 30, 2023 1:07 am

Sounds like a spark problem to me from this remove. Are the plug caps OK? Are the leads seated properly in the coils?

I cannot believe it's a huge, unsolvable problem.

Are you sure you reconnected all the sensors? Nah, that would throw an error. I think it's spark and downstream of the coils.
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Thu Nov 30, 2023 1:21 am

It would be a great coincidence Pete, because I didn't touched the coils. I did remove the inner and outer spark plug from the left cylinder, but I am 100% sure everything was back in place.
I also considered the possibility of a problem comming from that kinked fuel line, but I added a spiral guide in that section to assure it was not bending, and took a look under the tank after assembly and it was straight.
Mark has recommended to do an injector test with GuzziDiag and I am going to do it.
I have allways used the stock air-filters, but has I cleanned the TBs I could feel some wear on the TB walls. Maybe with the deposit removal, the gap between the butterfly and the walls allows more air through.
Sometimes when i started the bike the idle would climb and the come down. Also, when I was blipping the throotle, the return to idle was not immediate. Does this means rich or lean misture?
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Thu Nov 30, 2023 3:56 am

To me it sounds like a spark problem causing intermittent ignition on one or both cylinders and the stepper is trying, and failing, to cope by adjusting the air input. Stick a timing light on the HT leads and see if the spark is dropping in and out.

Really, I'm sure this is a *Physical*/*Mechanical* issue. Not some weird 'White Man Ju-Ju' caused by the ECU or engine management.

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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Thu Nov 30, 2023 4:46 am

Matias,
You and Pete will get this figured out and you’ll be in good shape for a long time to come. Try not to get frustrated. Best of luck.
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:00 am

Thanks John Smile

Pete, I don't have that timing light.
At least at low revs I don't feel an ignition problem.
Today I turned the bike on just for a couple of minutes inside the garage. We have shity weather again and yesterday I got a headache from exhaust fumes...
I'm attaching a link for a small video. A very random video, I'm sorry...I was paying more attention the the bike than to the video...But it it just so that you can hear the bike.
It doesn't sound that bad, but yesterday it sounded good also until I started reving it up.
I need better weather to take the bike outside and try again. I'm hopping it was just a random episode...

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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Thu Nov 30, 2023 4:54 pm

A few thoughts that have helped me in the past related to GuzziDiag, once on the GRiSO, once on the Norge.

1.  Did you Reset the Learning Parameters inside Guzzidiag or just reset TPS?
2.  Did you check CO Trim...leaving it at zero for starters.
3.  Did you check all of the "Engine off" items to listen to Fuel injector Left and Right and the Ignition L & R...do you hear the "click" when you activate that in Guzzidiag.
4. Are you sure that you picked GRiSO as the Model when connecting Guzzidiag...sorry for the obvious question...but worthwhile triple checking anyway!

Finally, if all of those are done, although it shouldn't matter, I once re-loaded the map that I had in place before doing the tune up, and for some reason, that solved the odd idle I had...i really don't know why...but it worked perfectly.

Best of luck!
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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Fri Dec 01, 2023 1:03 am

Hi PJ. Thanks for your thoughts.

1- After the TB cleanning I reinstalled the map and reset TPS and Learning Parameters.
2- I played around with CO for a while, up and down, and ended up in +1
3- At first I didn't, but yesterday I made the injector test by Mark recommendion. It gave positive results. I will do the ignition test today to rule out a spark problem. But if there is one it will be at high RPM (as you see in the vídeo the bike idles OK). To check at high RPM I would need the timing light Pete mentioned.
4- I configured the GuzziDiag the first time I installed it, and it as worked so far. I believe no problems in this department

In this first startup I made trials with two versions of Beetle's Map. Every time I flashed them I made the TPS and Learning Parameters reset.

One curiosity: the first time I connected the GuzziDiag the TPS was at 5º (usually 4.6º), but I guess this will have to do with all the cleanning.

The problems ocurred the last time when I started reving up, either by the revs themselves or by engine temperature (even though I was monitoring it with GuzziDiag and never reached the 80ºC).

As soon as the weather improves, I will take the bike out, and rev it up again. I will connect it to GuzziDiag and monitor a set of parameters recommended by Mark. If things go wrong again, maybe these parameters will tell us something

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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Fri Dec 01, 2023 2:25 pm

Hhmm...OK, interesting.

All breather tubes re-connected with the T-section and to the airbox, after you did the Manometer TB balancing, those have been reconnected to the throttle bodies?

Spark plug wires hard pressed into the coils, not loose, you can feel them "snap in"?

Doubtful you have any bad gas issues...idle sounded good.

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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:52 am

Hi guys,

Thanks to all for your tips and positive thoughts Smile...It's working...

Latest updates.
Yesterday, after tightenning better the clamps from the TB rubber connections to the cylinders and airbox I made a second "indoor trial".
Either these clamps were to loose or the injection circuit was still not working properly the first time, but this last trial went a lot better.
There is still some tunning to do, but all the havoc from the first trial is gone (once, for example, as I was attempting to start the bike, it backfired and spit out the hose from the Carbtune  Shocked )

I was planning to go out for a real test ride today, but rain is back...
I will report back new developments.

Thanks all. Have a great WE.

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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Throotle Body Time   Throotle Body Time Icon_minitime1Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:40 am

Hi everyone,

Even though the weather keeps nasty in my area, I was able to take some trials around the block.
Thank God everything seems to be back to normal...
I must say, however, that is this small trial I didn't noticed a clear improvement in the bike behavior after this TB cleaning....

Well....another crisis was solved thanks to you guys.
Long life to the GRiSO Ghetto tribe cheers

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