White 2010 GRiSO 1200 SE

Pete Roper wrote:

See my edit of previous post but as far as swarf etc? The stuff that comes off the tappets is very small to microscopic and until the tappets actually start to disintegrate you are unlikely to see 'Bits' in the oil.

The onset of failure, with the benefit of hindsight from my own engine, is that when the oil was changed the first couple of times it came out looking pretty much clean and odourless. By the third change it started getting a lot darker and began to have a slightly burnt, metallic, odour. This didn't seem to get any worse and although the valve clearances needed adjusting every service I didn't experience any huge discrepancies or very wide gaps in routine servicing so I just thought it was the rings not sealing as well as they might and blow-by fouling the oil, (This was when the 8V was very new and I was still learning about it but if I'd  thought anything serious was wrong with it I would of addressed it.). It was that optimism that cost me my engine but no point crying over spilt milk.

One plus of having a 2008 is that you get the steel oil pump gear! Later models use a plastic gear and while generally reliable I have seen two failures. The plastic gear I just took out of my 2012 engine was fine at 60,000km so its not like they are a weak point per-se but on something like an oil pump I really prefer a steel gear.

Check the throttle bodies haven't been monstered too. That's another big ticket item if they have.

I imagine at 18k miles his engine should be knackered by now See if cant get him to do a startup video.
Monstered Throttle Bodies you lost me completely.
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Mr BuellBloke, there is a sacred screw on the throttle bodies - it's sacred for a reason - DO NOT TOUCH THIS SCREW. However there a re a few shaved apes that cannot read and know not what they are doing (nor care) and they adjust this screw. This screw is factory set on a flow-bench to make sure the throttle bodies match. When touched, we call it monstered - rarely can it be reset successfully, unless the TPS reset has not been done.

Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) is reset using software (GuzziDiag) and once reset, returning the sacred screw to the untouchable position is damn near impossible.

You will learn all this and much, much more, once you own one.

Oh, and welcome!

18k miles and the wear will be quite advanced would be my guess but it's hard to say for sure s how rapidly it occurs depends on many factors.

See below a pic of an invoice for what you need. As I said elsewhere I can order it all for you if you wish? It won't cost you any more than going direct. Might be a wait for the 'B' kit though.

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By comparison a 'C' kit would cost $2095 AU approximately!

These prices do not include VAT etc.

Oz1200Guzzi wrote:

Mr BuellBloke, there is a sacred screw on the throttle bodies - it's sacred for a reason - DO NOT TOUCH THIS SCREW. However there a re a few shaved apes that cannot read and know not what they are doing (nor care) and they adjust this screw. This screw is factory set on a flow-bench to make sure the throttle bodies match. When touched, we call it monstered - rarely can it be reset successfully, unless the TPS reset has not been done.

Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) is reset using software (GuzziDiag) and once reset, returning the sacred screw to the untouchable position is damn near impossible.

You will learn all this and much, much more, once you own one.

Oh, and welcome!

Looking at the bike and its two owners they both seem respectable types who wouldnt dare to touch their bikes. The fact the latter paid £65 for oil that costs £40 and spark plugs for £40 that cost £25 as well as labour that far exceeded the cost of parts 2x over. Me on the other other hand with efi dont tend to touch set screws, though am not adverse to playing with maps or swaping them out for better ones.
One could quite easily confuse me with a shaved and heavily tattooed ape Lets hope this pretty little GRiSO has not been messed with though the dealer mentioned something about syncronising throttle bodies during the last service
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I hate to tell you but there are plenty of Guzzi dealers who don't know how to tune a W5AM Guzzi.

A lot of our work is trying to un-fuck stuff that has been fucked up by 'Official' dealerships and the biggest bugbear is throttlebodies.

Pete Roper wrote:

I hate to tell you but there are plenty of Guzzi dealers who don't know how to tune a W5AM Guzzi.

A lot of our work is trying to un-fuck stuff that has been fucked up by 'Official' dealerships and the biggest bugbear is throttlebodies.

I have no intention of using a dealer for any work. Wasnt claiming they knew what they were doing just saying they did something with the throttle bodies.
I would have thought balancing efi was bollocks as the only input for the end user is via a map, I could be wrong?

Pete Roper wrote:

18k miles and the wear will be quite advanced would be my guess but it's hard to say for sure s how rapidly it occurs depends on many factors.

See below a pic of an invoice for what you need. As I said elsewhere I can order it all for you if you wish? It won't cost you any more than going direct. Might be a wait for the 'B' kit though.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

By comparison a 'C' kit would cost $2095 AU approximately!

These prices do not include VAT etc.

So does the Austrailian dollar/british pound conversion exist on that invoice. Or would the price seen be exactly the same just in pounds sterling.
It's only now that I realised your in Australia
Whats like a final figure in £'s sterling that am looking at please?

Buellbloke wrote:

I would have thought balancing efi was bollocks as the only input for the end user is via a map, I could be wrong?

If you exclude the idle stepper, the map (on a 5AM bike) only controls the fuel. The throttle bodies still need to be balanced for air.

beetle wrote:

Buellbloke wrote:

I would have thought balancing efi was bollocks as the only input for the end user is via a map, I could be wrong?

If you exclude the idle stepper, the map (on a 5AM bike) only controls the fuel. The throttle bodies still need to be balanced for air.

So when a dealer says "balanced throttle bodies" it dont mean he monstered that screw that should not be touched?
Is there no form of IAT sensor to auto balance the air? How does the home mechanic go about doing something like that?

60% of that would equate to the Sterling - roughly

No, balancing throttle bodies is needed and uses a set of vacuum gauges to do - this is a different screw.

Oz1200Guzzi wrote:

60% of that would equate to the Sterling - roughly

Mmm significantly cheaper more like £1200 inc vat and shipping. As we are closer to the EU than Australia imagine shipping to be a lot less too!

Oz1200Guzzi wrote:

No, balancing throttle bodies is needed and uses a set of vacuum gauges to do - this is a different screw.

Thats a relief sounds a bit like old skook vacum gauges 2 instead of four.

Yup, sorry, you're wrong. Two throttle bodies? They need to be synchronised.

The good news is that there has never been an easier bike to tune than a W5AM Guzzi. The problem stems from the fact that people don't know, and don't bother trying to understand, how the system works.

The issue usually raises its ugly head because people, owners or mechanics, think that idling at 1,250 RPM is 'Too high'. This is particularly true of 'Old School' Guzzi mechanics who are used to big twins idling at about 1,000 RPM. Without bothering to read up on how the system works they'll start fiddling with the throttle stop screw thinking if they close the throttle plate a bit it will drop the idle.

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

The idle speed is coded into the ECU as a 'Target Idle'. The ECU uses an air over idle device commonly known as a Stepper Motor to add or subtract air to the throttlebodies to increase the idle, (Add more air? Leaner mixture=higher idle speed. Subtract air? Richer mixture=lower idle speed.) messing about with the throttle stop screw won't lower the idle because the ECU just tells the stepper to add more air to keep the ide stable. By the time you've moved the throttle plate enough to change the idle you are in a world of pain! Why?

Well by moving the throttle plate you are also changing the position of the TPS, the Throttle Position Sensor. Now with the W5AM set up as used on all CARC Guzzis except the Bellagio the TPS is the only relevant input to control how much fuel is delivered, (For our purposes here we can ignore temperature and lambda inputs.) and how it is used is interpretative. The system doesn't use a Mass Air Flow sensor or a Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor. The only way that the ECU knows how much fuel to add is by knowing what the throttle plate angle is. The Throttlebodies are set up on a flow bench by Marelli and from there the stop screws should not be touched.

When balancing the throttlebodies you simply warm the motor up. Close both the air beds, (One on each TB.) and then balance the two throttlebodies at 'High Speed', ie @ about 3,500-4,000 rpm using the screw on the bell crank on the left TB. Once that is done you kill the motor using the kill switch and using Guzzidiag or one of the other proprietary diagnostic tools you re-calibrate the TPS electronically, (Three mouse clicks. It's not hard.). You then re-start the motor and whichever side has the highest manifold depression at idle you open the air bleed on that TB to gain equilibrium.

Disconnect diagnostic tooling. Remove manometer and re-insert manifold plug screws. Go ride.

It's that simple.

The problems arise if someone has played with the throttle stop screw and then recalibrated the TPS. Because the TPS value is interpretive the ECU will assume that if the TPS value is 'x' then it should add 'y' amount of fuel. If the throttle plate is now not where it should be then when the TPS value is 'X' the amount of air getting to the motor will be greater or less than it should be and the amount of fuel 'y' will be incorrect. This will be particularly noticeable at small throttle openings. If the linkage rod ball joints have been moved things get immeasurably worse!

If the throttle stop screw on the LH throttlebody is still sealed with yellow paint chances are the TB's will be OK. If it's been dug out and it looks like the screw has been moved? Tread carefully and carry a big stick.

[quote="Buellbloke"]

Pete Roper wrote:

So does the Austrailian dollar/british pound conversion exist on that invoice. Or would the price seen be exactly the same just in pounds sterling.
It's only now that I realised your in Australia
Whats like a final figure in £'s sterling that am looking at please?

Using an online currency converter that invoice equates to about £750.

'C' kit equates to £1100 and it doesn't include the oil filter and sump gaskets.

Shipping is €35

Pete Roper wrote:

Buellbloke wrote:

Pete Roper wrote:

So does the Austrailian dollar/british pound conversion exist on that invoice. Or would the price seen be exactly the same just in pounds sterling.
It's only now that I realised your in Australia
Whats like a final figure in £'s sterling that am looking at please?

Using an online currency converter that invoice equates to about £750.

'C' kit equates to £1100 and it doesn't include the oil filter and sump gaskets.

Shipping is €35

Sounds cool as long as its no more than £1500 am happy. 6K bike looks good for it. I still dont imagine this particular bike has been f*cked with in any way.
New stuff to learn with the balancing when it becomes aparent it needs it will enquire further or refer to my posts here.
I like a place where people know stuff, nothing worse than a group of people squabbling about what they dont know.

Fitted a head breather kit on the harley would say less than 1% world wide harley owners know anything about venting condensation and head gases. Pros do though.
Used a Vance & Hines Fuel pack to map out existing harley emission controlled map not created to run on anything but harley slip on silencers, for an exhaust specific lightly richer sweeter running engine map.
Tickover was electronically reduced from 1020 -1800rpms to 980 -1020. Supposed to be 1000rpm. Electronic idle being digital shows up as a certain point to another point.
Not doing the above causes a lot of problems, very high idle startups, slow to drop revs coming down gears, slow speed engine cut outs. Dealers clean out the goop clean the IAT sensor and charge £60 over and over and over again.

Buellbloke wrote:

Sounds cool as long as its no more than £1500 am happy. 6K bike looks good for it. I still dont imagine this particular bike has been f*cked with in any way.
New stuff to learn with the balancing when it becomes aparent it needs it will enquire further or refer to my posts here.

It will need rebalancing and remapping after rollerisation. The factory supplied map is OK but pretty pedestrian. It's the same map fitted to all GRiSO's post about 2010 from memory. A far, far better bet is to buy one of Beetle's maps and install it. Simple and easy to do using the Guzzidiag suite of tools.

Whichever bike you buy don't buy the parts until you know for certain that it is still a flat tappet machine. No point in spending the money if it's already been done.

Pete Roper wrote:

Buellbloke wrote:

Sounds cool as long as its no more than £1500 am happy. 6K bike looks good for it. I still dont imagine this particular bike has been f*cked with in any way.
New stuff to learn with the balancing when it becomes aparent it needs it will enquire further or refer to my posts here.

It will need rebalancing and remapping after rollerisation. The factory supplied map is OK but pretty pedestrian. It's the same map fitted to all GRiSO's post about 2010 from memory. A far, far better bet is to buy one of Beetle's maps and install it. Simple and easy to do using the Guzzidiag suite of tools.

Whichever bike you buy don't buy the parts until you know for certain that it is still a flat tappet machine. No point in spending the money if it's already been done.

Not sure of the time differential but was up to 4.30am this morning
Matey offered to get the bike rocker cover removed by his mechanic Lewis Reynolds whom he claims is a top racing mechanic.
He also sent me a video of startup from cold what do you reckon?

Idle seems a bit low. It also is very clattery but it is a 2008, mine made a noise like two cheesegraters fornicating in an iron tank so that might be *Normal*! (Actually it's not and is normally a sign that the tappets are going west or the stop screw has been fiddled with. Might also be it wasn't remapped after rollerisation.)

The pics will tell the story. When we ask for pictures of the tappets we do NOT mean pictures of the valve lash adjusters. We need a pic of the end of the rockers and the cambox away from the valves.

Pics of the two designs have been posted here a dozen times and should be easily searchable.

Pete Roper wrote:

Idle seems a bit low. It also is very clattery but it is a 2008, mine made a noise like two cheesegraters fornicating in an iron tank so that might be *Normal*!

The pics will tell the story. When we ask for pictures of the tappets we do NOT mean pictures of the valve lash adjusters. We need a pic of the end of the rockers and the cambox away from the valves.

Pics of the two designs have been posted here a dozen times and should be easily searchable.

What am asking is does it sound f*cked should I pop a deposit to secure? Can I ride 250 miles home or should I have it collected? I'd prefer the latter as never ridden a GRiSO/Guzzi.
Plus after I f*ck with it may never ever work again      
That last bit probably sounds madness but lots of people adore these bikes. Am an air cooled twin rider prefer classic bikes and unusual to the norm.
There is absolutely no reason I wont fully enjoy its quirkiness that an like most bikers I can ride anything.

How can you expect me to make an assessment of the health or otherwise of an engine from a video clip listened to on an iPad sent from half way around 5he world? Do you want me to say "Yes! It sounds fine!" So if it turns into a raging clusterfuck it can be my fault? Sorry. Not going to happen.

See my edited earlier response but the ball is in your court.

As I say to anyone who purchases an unrollerised flat tappet bike. Don't even start it again until it has been rollerised. If it has been rollerised check the paint on the throttlebodies carefully.

Pete Roper wrote:

How can you expect me to make an assessment of the health or otherwise of an engine from a video clip listened to on an iPad sent from half way around 5he world? Do you want me to say "Yes! It sounds fine!" So if it turns into a raging clusterfuck it can be my fault? Sorry. Not going to happen.

See my edited earlier response but the ball is in your court.

As I say to anyone who purchases an unrollerised flat tappet bike. Don't even start it again until it has been rollerised. If it has been rollerised check the paint on the throttlebodies carefully.

Ha ha Was hoping you would inspire confidence as gagging to ride the thing home.
Dont suppose you have a closeup picture of this yellow painted screw on the throttle body I can request a copy off the seller?

Managed to get a couple pics of that screw with the yellow paint, assume its that screw? nut around it looks spot welded. Paint looks intact and undisturbed to me what do you think?
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(Sigh!) I'm about to go to bed. I'll get one tommorow if nobody else can oblige before hand.

Pete Roper wrote:

(Sigh!) I'm about to go to bed. I'll get one tommorow if nobody else can oblige before hand.

I managed 4.30 am its like 8.00pm over there isnt it, showing your age

@Buellbloke
for the visble difference between rollers and flats see the pix in this string [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

lcjohnny wrote:

@Buellbloke
for the visble difference between rollers and flats see the pix in this string [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I think we already covered that back when I first joined.
Am currently up to supplying a picture of the yellow painted throttle body butterfly adjuster/sync screw a bit further up the page. To show whether its been tampered with.
I've yet to see under the rocker as the owner has not even basic mechanical savvy and no tools. He is going to get it removed and photographed by his mechanic.
Pete Roper has supplied me details of the B kit and getting the extra bits seperate, should I have to perform the rollererisation myself.
I've watched his videos on youtube and read over the link you just sent me, though seems going by that link are a lot of people that are lot less clueless than me out there.