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 Didn't want to hear this

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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Didn't want to hear this   Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:25 am

Yesterday was forecast to be a great day, so I was preping the New bike, a 1200 GRiSO, after it's winter slumber. After it warmed up there was a loud 'tappet' like noise, that didn't sound good.

Took my V11 Sport instead & had a great ride. Then back home I adjusted the tappets on the GRiSO, checked the oil again.

Still the loud tapping, from the right cylinder. The sound rises with engine revs, it doesn't change with bliping the throttle, meaning the sound gets faster, but not harsher, as if a big end bearing under load. With a stethoscope I made myself more concerned as the sound seemed to be louder at the front of the engine & lower down. It could be a blocked oilway, starving oil to the roller tappets, but it's new clean synthetic Eni 10/60. So that doesn't seem likely.

Earlier this year, on a clear day, I took the bike over to show off to a neighbor. After the 1/2 mile to his house the bike had developed the same noise. We checked the oil & found that the PO after changing the oil had filled it to the correct level on the dipstick but with the bike on the sidestand, not with the bike upright. Added more oil & the sound disappeared.

Between then & now I have only had 1 ride, because of the weather, a 'getting to know you' ride of 160 miles. The only comment I would make was the bike sounded noisy as I put it away in the barn. But not the loud tapping noise I have now.

I do not have the skills nor currently the time to open the engine up, it would be pulling components apart & looking for damage. Which is where I do not have the knowledge.

So it looks like I will be visiting Cadre cycles in Cinncinnatti, Ohio soon. I posted on WildGuzzi asking for reviews and they were recommended. But I'm still mystified as to what this is. Ideas ?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:48 am

Is this bike a factory roller tappet model or has it been rollerised? Also the amount of oil in it shouldn't affect anything as long as there is enough to cover the pick-ups. Filled to the 'Full' Mark when on the sidestand is in fact about right.

Unfortunately chasing a *Noise* problem over the interwebs is difficult but the culprit that springs immediately to mind is the camchain tensioner, hence the question about whether it was a factory roller bike or retrofit.

Pete
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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:30 am

Chasing down the VIN I learned that it was sold by Fast by Ferracci, in Philly. They did the recall on the rear suspension dogbone. So I belive it was a Roller motor from the factory, not a recall.

The dipstick is one of the one's with a tempreture gauge on the end, great but the stainless steel makes it hard to see the level when it is new clean oil. I should only use dirty dark oil instead. jocolor

The oil pressure light never came on when it shouldn't. So I was happy to fill it up until it puked the oil out the breather. It's the on again / off again part that's confusing.

The sound is hard 'tap tap' rather than a noisy bearing. And it's seems to be at the front of the engine rather that at the rear where the tensioners are.

It's all good.
As much as I want to work on the bike I'm blessed at the moment with great work, appreciative clients who are paying handsomely and not enough time to get it all done. So no worries.
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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:13 am

Been trying to remenber what the sound reminds me of; a hydralic tappet that hasn't filled or pressurised after an oil change.
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avgpetro
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:59 pm

Nobleswood wrote:

The sound is hard 'tap tap' rather than a noisy bearing. And it's seems to be at the front of the engine rather that at the rear where the tensioners are.

Just an idea, from a guy that knows almost nothing: This "hard tap-tap" at the front, could it be from a piece breaking of the generator belt? - I think its easy to take a look...
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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:02 pm

As you said easy to look into, but the sound isn't there until the engine warms up.
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Bill Hagan
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:42 pm

Header pipe flanges torqued down to spec?

Loose ones can cause a steady ticking sound.

Bill
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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:37 pm

Yes. After your post I checked & tightened them
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waterbottle
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:08 pm

Take the rocker cover off again, look down the chain tunnel to see if the plastic tensioner arm has been broken
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:29 pm

Could be a dodgy tensioner plunger. Doug just replaced his on his stelvio because they were noisy and it made a big difference to performance too it seems.

If it was rollerised after it left the factory whoever did it may of stuck the plunger back in the barrel the wrong way up. Might even of happened at the factory! Tank off, reservoir cover off, check it, its easy.

Pete
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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:11 pm

I didn't realise the tensioner could cause such problems. I'll have a look Monday night.
Thanks
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:51 pm

Normally they don't, lets face it they're a pretty simple device! If a bit of dirt or something is holding the ball off its seat though it won't be able to work properly. If its in upside down it won't prime. This is why there are left and right plungers rather than two the same.

Pete
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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:06 pm

Would this create a 'tap tap' noise rather than noisy chain sound ?

God it's hard to describe engine sounds sometimes !
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:13 pm

Yes, the blade of the tensioner flailing about makes a ticking/clacking noise.
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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:37 pm

When I start the bike with a cold engine, there is no abnormal noise. The 'tap tap' only appears after the engine warms up. Would the camchain tensioner solution fit those conditions ?

Thinking about Bills comment about the exhaust being loose. How do you detect a crack in the header or a poor fit ? I've tightened up the studs but don't want to blindly crank down on one & snap it's rusty head off. Making matters worse.

I'm trying to tick off the simple solutions first.
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:39 am

Large screwdriver, pair of gloves. If its rattling you can try holding various bits to see if it stops; use screwdriver to listen to where the sound is coming from as well. Camchain tensioner is as close to a hydraulic tappet as you get on GRiSO and it it's got a problem it will likely get worse as oil temp increases and viscosity goes down. TBH I'd just pull the cam cover and see whats going on in there !
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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:23 pm

Thanks all for the advice

After the tank came off the RH camchain tensioner plunger was easily accessible. Removed the plunger, squirted it with Carb cleaner while poking a pin at the ball valve & the action seemed to be better.

Took off the rocker covers & inspected the cam chain tensioners. Both sides seemed to be intact. Manually cranked the engine over & heard no unusual noises.

Removed the exhaust header nuts, cleaned, added anti-seize & torqued back on.

Started the bike up and after the engine got to tempreture, 60* plus the 'tap tap' was there again.

Ordered the camchain tensioner so I'll try that fix before doing anything else. scratch

How do I load a sound file from my iPhone ?
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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Fitted the new camchain tensioner. After the bike warmed up the noise is still there.

Suggestions ?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:10 pm

Can you whip a rocker cover off and send me a pic of the cambox and the top of the tappets?

I'd just like to confirm it is a roller motor.

pete

motomoda.ropergmail.com
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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:34 pm

I will.

Can i send you a sound file that I recorded with my iPhone. I couldn't figure out how to post it here scratch
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Sure, not sure it will help a lot as the sound quality of my 'Pooter is awful and I'm as deaf as a post but by all means and I'll see see if I can isolate anything.

Gimme Vin and Engine number again too.

Pete
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MalG
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:15 pm

Something from left field - a broken headlight bucket rim can sound like tappets. The headlight insert rattles along with engine speed. If a hand over the headlight quiets that noise, it could be the source. The bucket is plastic & the rim can be sliver thin. A similar, but not as hard a noise can be generated by a loose horn. It's easier to eliminate these things before getting serious.
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sidrat
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:25 pm

MalG wrote:
Something from left field - a broken headlight bucket rim can sound like tappets. The headlight insert rattles along with engine speed. If a hand over the headlight quiets that noise, it could be the source. The bucket is plastic & the rim can be sliver thin. A similar, but not as hard a noise can be generated by a loose horn. It's easier to eliminate these things before getting serious.

I had this problem with mine, in fact i have had every problem! A little bit of tape cures it.

Take it for a ride, until the noise appears, stand up on the pegs and hold on to the headlight, the noise will stop.
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MalG
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:10 pm

Another source of weird noises is failing front wheel bearings. Normally they are good for decades, but occasionally ....... Easy enough to check out
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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Re: Didn't want to hear this   Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:29 pm

Unfortunately using a stethoscope confirmed this is engine related
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