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 First out of town trip!

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Mandrake
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PostSubject: First out of town trip!   Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:57 pm

Took "the Beast" on an inaugural trip out of Melbourne 'burbs of Friday  down the Peninsula to Cape Shanck, Flinders, Shoreham, Red Hill and Arthur's Seat. 220km. Some great fast and curvy roads! We are finally starting to get to know each other . I bottled out coming down the real twisty road from Arthurs seat. Numerous warning road signs with " wobbly" bikes on sapped my confidence and I rode that  bit  like a wuss!

I've posted previously how I bought the bike with a less than complete service history at 5,600 km, with an engine noisier than I'd have expected and with a " memjet" gizmo installed to " accomodate" the aftermarket Arrow exhaust. Fuel consumption was 8.6-9.6 Lt/ 100km .


After having removed the memjet, installed a map from Beetle and having valve gaps adjusted, new oils and some suspension adjustment I'm riding it with more confidence, more smoothly and more reliance on low end torque.

Much fun being had and fuel consumption down to 5.7 litres/100km on the above mixed freeway and twists trip!!              ( Thanks Beetle!!)

The mechanic wound the rear preload off over a cm and  front preload down to no threads showing.  The rear is feeling more " planted" and I'm suspecting could be wound back even further ( for my bulging intervertebral disc!)   though I'm in no rush. The front feels somewhat " harsh" and I'm thinking that I should wound it back closer to stock settings although to be honest I'm not sure what I should be expecting after my V7 at the front end.   Any thoughts?
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:11 pm

The stock forks are undersprung and overdamped. Not much to be done but spend, spend, spend! Better riding through aggressive spending.


cheers
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Mandrake
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:31 pm

Hmm that could be a tricky one to put past the war office right now. We seem to be having a plethora of unavoidable expenses coming in. I'm hopeful of getting the best I can out of what's there for now. I weigh less than 70KG. Wildy guessing that I'd be better off winding the front fork preload back to maybe 4 threads showing ? What are other lightish riders running with?
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:03 am

Regardless of what you do to the stock suspension, it will always offer a harsh ride. Simply put, the factory did zero development on suspension, just bought whatever cheap shit was on offer.

The 43mm Showa forks are a brilliant design, anything can be done to stock internals, but the correct piston/shimming system needs to be fitted. With the rear shock damping is the key also, throw it in the bin and buy an upmarket unit. Your kidneys, vertebrae etc will love you for it.

My Bellagio was so poor, 150km had me totally knackered. Upgraded to an internally modified stock shock, better but still a poor quality ride.
I now have a Matris shock and modded forks on my Bellagio. I can ride all day long, Sweet!

Comfort doesn't mean soft soggy and wobbly.
Handling doesn't mean rock hard race track settings.
Compliance means your suspension is doing what it was design to do, absorb the bumps with minimal or no disruption to your forward progression in the direction you desire, such that most often you don't even realize things are going, boing boing boing under your arse.

Got a 130kg mate who wrote-off 3 bikes with unexplained, "just got spat off", with witnesses. Took 3 years to convince him to rebuild suspension for his individual weight.
Once he did it he said, "Why didn't you tell me this before"? scratch He is now the Sunday ride organizer/lead rider.

My original suspension used to bounce my arse out of the seat, feet off the pegs, and the bike off line. In a corner this is neither safe nor fun. Now I ride safer, faster and in comfort.
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wyno
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:51 pm

Seeing as you're in Melbourne and I'm in Geelong, why don't we arrange a time and a date to meet up and you can try out my GRiSO with the Matris front and rear suspension. I do weigh about 95-100kg in riding gear, so Pete set it up for me, but you'll be able to get an idea of what is possible. Tell the war office that it's for your safety while riding and if you don't do it, you might have an accident because of her penny pinching. LOL.
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Clancy
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:58 pm

Mandrake wrote:
Hmm that could be a tricky one to put past the war office right now.  We seem to be having a plethora of unavoidable expenses coming in.  I'm hopeful of getting  the best I can out of what's there for now.  I weigh less than 70KG.  Wildy guessing that I'd be better off winding the  front fork preload back to maybe 4 threads showing ?  What are other lightish riders running with?

I'm in the same boat as you, I weigh 70kg and don't have anymore funds.... Crying or Very sad
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:11 pm

Add a couple of sand bags to the rear, or just take the misses for ballast.
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wyno
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:25 pm

Just don't tell her why she's there.
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Brent S
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:11 am

Mandrake, great to hear that you stretched the legs on your GRiSO for the first time. It's a significantly more enjoyable bike out on the open road than in the confines of the 'burbs in my opinion.

I've also ridden that area down on the Peninsula a few times. Some good roads there. The Arthur's Seat road can be a bit awkward though. Aside from the ever present risk of Mr Vic Police Highway Patrol parked one one of the parking bays halfway up, the road itself is far from ideal. There's some ripples in the road surface on several of the hairpin bends which can have the rear stepping out on you, and there's quite often some gravel residue on some of the corners. Not great for confidence. The GRiSO is a bloody heavy bike, and on the downhill run in particular you can run out of road bloody quickly if not careful as you brake into the tight switchback bends. Then again, I'm a bit of a shit rider truth be known, so others may do this road with their eyes closed.

In terms of the suspension, the stock arrangement was the worst part of the bike for me. I'm about 76kg myself, or just under 85kg in battle gear, and I gave up trying to adjust the stock suspension. The rear shock damping adjustments were hopeless. Either stiff as a board or loose as jelly........no middle ground. Gave up and got a Wilbers rear spring/shock which instantly transformed the rear. The spring provided by Wilbers was a 95N which is essentially the same rate as the stock spring. Jury is still out on whether I could have gone up a notch to a 105N if there is such a thing, but if you're 5-10kgs lighter than me, the stock spring rate would be plenty, even with nominal preload.

The best bit about the aftermarket rear shock is the valving and damping. It's now more compliant over ripples and bumps, yet is much more planted at speed. My arse used to leave the seat when I hit a decent bump on the old shock. Not any more. It's just better all round.

The only drawback to doing the rear suspension was that it instantly highlighted how bad the front fork setup is. Within 2 months I was back to the bike shop asking to have the front forks done. I had Matris cartridges put in the front. They came out of the box a little stiff to begin with, but have loosened up a bit with a couple of hundred kms. I haven't fiddled with the damping or preload settings that the bike shop dialled in. Just waiting until I become accustomed to the whole thing before I go around twisting the dials too far one way or the other.

So, is a good aftermarket suspension setup worthwhile for the GRiSO? Absolutely. Was it an expensive exercise? Yes unfortunately. Given that I have the mechanical aptitude of a lettuce, I paid to have the front and rear suspension fitted by the supplier as opposed to doing it myself. Saved no end of tears, but also cost me several hundred $ more into the equation. However, at the time I had the money, so I don't regret it.

Brent.
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:50 pm

Good to hear Brent.
Mid corner corrugations / stepping out, and bum in the air over bigger bumps are all the consequence of piss-poor damping.

Stock shock damping going from too hard, to too soft with a micro adjustment.
Hi-end shocks have a long tapered needle passing thru a hole, = very fine adjustment.
Sachs shock has a tent peg that butts up against a hole, = totally blocked or full flow, nothing in between. This is why spending money for a Stelvio shock or improving the GRiSO shock is not cost effective, = very little gain for the money spent. I got the t-shirt and scars to prove it.

Front end - Matris kit is very popular and effective, but few here have explored other options.
The stock GRiSO front end is a Showa 43mm upside down fork - used on nearly every sports bike on the planet (for the last 15 years) since the invention of "upside dunnies".
Guzzi factory just bought a boat load of forks developed for a bike 40kg lighter, hence their crap performance on a GRiSO.

The ducks guts were Ohlin forks on the 'S' model Ducati's up until 2002, after that the Ohlin fork internals went backwards. Since then their only advantage over Showa forks was the gold anodizing, and the bullshit 'S' sticker on your Ducati. Got that t-shirt too.

The upshot, any 43mm Showa/Ohlin fork can be made to perform as good as the original Ohlin unit, by simple valving/shimming mods. You boys in Melbourne and Sydney have serious suspension guru's at your disposal. In Brisbane I use Scotty Heyes (son of Roger) at Edge competition.

On Bella I have fitted a set of 43mm upside down Showa forks off a Ducati Multistrada 1000DS. I needed the extra length and triple clamp offset for my geometry, but the internals are the same. Scotty did the rebuild with new springs, new seals, re-shimmed etc for $800. Superb result, although the stock Ducati fork set up wasn't too bad, Bella is 200kg wet.

So I'm just saying, front end can be successfully modified, but the rear Sachs is junk. WOFTAM!
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:19 pm

Rule of thumb when buying Matris is to tell 'me you're 20kg lighter than you actually are.


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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:57 pm

I did that, my shock is still too heavily sprung and the forks are at the end of their adjustment for preload. Another reason I'm fitting the Sachs with Matris cartridges of Mark S's bike. He's a filthy little midget so I'm hoping they have softer springs!

Pete

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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:55 pm

A lot of suspension techs are "cyclops" focused on race bikes or dedicated track bikes, big difference to road bike requirements. Though it seems Ron kept getting the soft option on springs for his track only GRiSO, he had to go harder harder harder for the desired result.
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:30 pm

Pretty sure the Green GRiSO has a 130 Nm spring on the shock which seems perfect. The Matris fork kits in both GRiSO's are identical, with 10 Nm springs. Perfect for the Green tracker, but a bit harsh in the Red GRiSO on the shite roads around here.
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mark111
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:38 pm

My experience with the stock front suspension (I'm around 75kg) is to adjust the suspension spring preload to about half way on (fully wound in is way to stiff for your weight) or adjust the sag to around 20 to 25mm, others may have other opinions but it works for me. Back the compression and rebound damping fully off (fully wound out). Find a piece of bumpy road and ride it a number of times so you have a repeatable cycle to evaluate the changes. Based on advice from a suspension specialist (real suspension tech not the fat know it all at the local pub) I adjust the rebound first, half turn at a time then ride the bumpy section to compare the adjustments to find what is the best feel. Depending on your experience you will hopefully find the sweet spot, you don't want the rebound to stiff or it will slow up the suspension returning after hitting a bump, it is really dependant on how much spring preload you have. Once this is completed adjust the compression by the same repeatable method. You will need minimal compression damping, mine is set around 1/2 a turn in from fully wound out i.e. wind it out fully and then try it out over the known bit of bumpy road. At your weight you might not need to wind on any additional compression damping (screw fully wound out) as the standard damping may be sufficient for a controlled and more supple ride. The rear suspension is a little more complicated due to the limited shock travel but can be improved significantly by having the shock rebuilt by someone like Terry Hay at shock treatment or if you have the spare cash by fitting a better after market shock. A bit of time and patience and using a repeatable test section can reap benefits. At your weight you are more likely to get a result with the stock suspension than most of the big arse overweight lumps that frequent this forum.


Last edited by mark111 on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:42 am

Hey, I resemble that last remark Shocked Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:31 am

Yeah, we three blind jellyfish have feelings too.
Besides, rather than going on a diet it was easier to spend 20K on my bike to lighten it. geek
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Mandrake
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:41 pm

So sorry for the tardy reply. I've been stuck for free net time lately.

I've just tried the multi quote function to reply to a few of you individually but my tired head isn't getting me there.

I'm really struck by the level of expertise and experience you guys have to share. I've been a little flummoxed whilst while I've been loving the raw power , handling wise I'm still a whole lot more comfortable with my V7 with ikon rear shocks ( which were transformational for me). Albeit the front end dives somewhat on hard breaking and clearly the bike feels a bit more " flexy" on hard banking and bumps.  

On the Best I've just wound the front fork preload out six turns and the compression damping out 1/2 turn more ( two turns from tight in) and I'm  seizing the  currently rare opportunity to go for a short blast to check things out. I may not have time for serious tinkering and research riding over the next few weeks but will try to find time to tinker just a little and remember to take some notes .

Wyno

I'd love to catch up with you to take you up on your kind offer of feeling what the matris setup has done for your bike. How many $$$$'s would the  parts change and labour   be roughly per front end and or rear end?  I notice that Matris folks are not far down the road from me in Seaford for when or if Im near to pulling the trigger on an upgrade.  


mark111.......  For now I might go for your recipe as theres no spend involved  , just time and ride research, and you're close to my weight.  May I ask how many turns would preload spring wind out to softest setting before the springs pop out ( or is there a stop)? And what would be about half way in turns of a spanner?  Dumbass q probably.  Similarly with the compression and rebound damping......  do they wind out to a solid stop?



Also thanks for the many wise words from the forum on " managing " the war office........ I'm guessing it means that old dogs DO learn some new tricks. ( probably because consequences of repeat offending can be little harsh )
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Mandrake
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:47 pm

Brent S wrote:
Mandrake, great to hear that you stretched the legs on your GRiSO for the first time. It's a significantly more enjoyable bike out on the open road than in the confines of the 'burbs in my opinion.



In terms of the suspension, the stock arrangement was the worst part of the bike for me. I'm about 76kg myself, or just under 85kg in battle gear, and I gave up trying to adjust the stock suspension. The rear shock damping adjustments were hopeless. Either stiff as a board or loose as jelly........no middle ground. Gave up and got a Wilbers rear spring/shock which instantly transformed the rear. The spring provided by Wilbers was a 95N which is essentially the same rate as the stock spring. Jury is still out on whether I could have gone up a notch to a 105N if there is such a thing, but if you're 5-10kgs lighter than me, the stock spring rate would be plenty, even with nominal preload.

The best bit about the aftermarket rear shock is the valving and damping. It's now more compliant over ripples and bumps, yet is much more planted at speed. My arse used to leave the seat when I hit a decent bump on the old shock. Not any more. It's just better all round.

The only drawback to doing the rear suspension was that it instantly highlighted how bad the front fork setup is. Within 2 months I was back to the bike shop asking to have the front forks done. I had Matris cartridges put in the front. They came out of the box a little stiff to begin with, but have loosened up a bit with a couple of hundred kms. I haven't fiddled with the damping or preload settings that the bike shop dialled in. Just waiting until I become accustomed to the whole thing before I go around twisting the dials too far one way or the other.

So, is a good aftermarket suspension setup worthwhile for the GRiSO? Absolutely. Was it an expensive exercise? Yes unfortunately. Given that I have the mechanical aptitude of a lettuce, I paid to have the front and rear suspension fitted by the supplier as opposed to doing it myself. Saved no end of tears, but also cost me several hundred $ more into the equation. However, at the time I had the money, so I don't regret it.

Brent.


Where did you get the work done Brent?
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wyno
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:58 pm

Mandrake, I can't tell you exactly how much the suspension work cost me as it was part of a whole bunch of work done by Pete, but I can tell you it was worth every cent. I'll be busy for the next 2 weekends but after that we could arrange a meet up.
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wyno
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:58 pm

Mandrake, I can't tell you exactly how much the suspension work cost me as it was part of a whole bunch of work done by Pete, but I can tell you it was worth every cent. I'll be busy for the next 2 weekends but after that we could arrange a meet up.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:11 pm

I can tell you pretty much exactly what we bought for Michael's bike. I can also say that his set up, for whatever reason, is light years ahead of mine.

Bare with me and I'll dig the invoices out.

For whatever reason Michael's bike is absolutely fucking brilliant straight out. Of the box.

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:28 pm

I totally agree. It's the shizz. If only I knew how to ride it better. Must do a track day soon.
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Brent S
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:51 am

PM sent Mandrake.
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Mandrake
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PostSubject: Re: First out of town trip!   Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:53 pm

wyno wrote:
Mandrake, I can't tell you exactly how much the suspension work cost me as it was part of a whole bunch of work done by Pete, but I can tell you it was worth every cent. I'll be busy for the next 2 weekends but after that we could arrange a meet up.


Excellent , will look forward to it!
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