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 Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello

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Bill Hagan
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PostSubject: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:17 am



As I mentioned — but without further elaboration — in a couple of threads here, I finally got around to loading beetle’s maps onto my GRiSO (and Norge and Stornello).

I am in Atlanta this week, where it seems as if I have jetted to the subtropics.  Back home at the top of Virginia, there are several inches of snow and ice on the ground.  Here, daffodils are popping.

But last week, we had one of those odd balmy days with a high near 75F/24C … the kind that makes you check the weather reports t make sure a tornado isn’t in the area!  

And, had it not been for the able assistance of others — and in the mapping, Martin especially — I would still be cursing the darkness.

So, I jumped on the Norge first, then the GRiSO for an hour or so on each on the wonderfully fun local back roads of Virginia and West Virginia.  The Stornello, which is still on the lift and has its auxiliary lights hanging like … no printable metaphor comes to mind  Wink  … will have to wait a few weeks.

The verdicts?

Well, first the usual legals and disclaimers.

I have never dyno'd either of these machines, so the only known base line was my not especially educated saddle meter.  And, quite frankly, both GRiSO and Norge were, IMO, running quite well before the new maps, so I was even wary — all the positive reports understood — of fix’n what ain’t broke.

Moreover, in the case of the GRiSO, when Jim Barron at Rose Farm Classics (where I bought it and trailered it out 1600-miles R/T for the work!) did the flat-to-roller work he also had the heads “blueprinted.”  OK, what he really did I don't even understand, but invoice reads: “HEAD/VALVE MULTI ANGLE SEAT-FACE, CUT RADIUS & HAND LAP.”  

Sounded impressive to me, but — again, see "saddle meter” disclaimer, above — whether the rollers, the extra head work, Jim’s magic touch, or my imagination completely (and I do not rule out the last), I cannot imagine any GRiSO running better than mine, bragging BS understood.

So, you may now better understand why I was skeered to muck up that.

So ... how did it go?

First, given this forum's focus, the GRiSO.

I have to say that I was a bit worried when we started it on the stand in the Moto Grappa.  Stumble, cough, burp, & die.  Not an auspicious start ... NPI.

Ah, eureka, it had an almost empty tank and that — on account of my fear of ethanol-swell and other evils -- likely had more Startron than gasoline in it.  A few pints of real 91 stuff, and it was varooom thru the tach numbers before settling into a pleasant idle.  Still, there’s that sort of “sounds nice” testing and the road.  The latter had to wait for that nice day, which is how I started this.

I rode the Norge first, but will relate that after the GRiSO’s “ride report.”

The red sweetie started instantly, immediately settled into a smooth idle c. 1100 rpm, and waited for “instructions.”

I went on a standard route I have near me that presents everything except the slab, i.e., a few 1/4-mile straights, lots of hills, curves, and more.  

Candidly, the most noticeable (to me) near-dramatic change was not in accel, but in decel.  The GRiSO has never been a popper like the Norge, but there’s always been some.  Now nada, but that’s not the change.  

The GRiSO had previously had, of course, detectable engine braking coming off a rip up the tach or just riding along.  Now — and this must sound crazy — that decel is VERY noticeable.  That is not a complaint, but an observation.  It’s as if the engine is running when I let off the throttle.  Well, doh, yes, of course, it is, but I mean it in the sense that there is no sense of chopping the throttle even when I do.

The particularly great positive to this is that it makes throttle maintenance through a turn — especially when one enters a wee bit hot!  Shocked — smoother, thus stabilizing what might have been an underwear-changing moment.  I do not want to make too much of this, and worry that I am imagining this phenomenon. but it was real enough on that recent first test ride.

My GRiSO has always had — and I credit Jim Barron — a linear power band under power from start to rev limiter.  I have ridden the even-earlier-than-mine 8v Grisos with that oft-mentioned “turbo lag.”  In some respects, that was an oddly endearing trait, but it’s hard not to like much better that steady tug all the way out to WFO that I had before beetle’s map.

Still there?  Absodamnlutely.  Better?  Probably, and, yes, I do think it’s quicker, but the “before” was so good, the improvement in acel is likely in the arena of tenths of tenths. and beyond my grasp.

I do look forward to warmer days and longer rides to see it anything I said above is borne out after more miles.

The Norge?  Similar as to decel, with popping reduced to near zero, and that’s a big deal to me.  Idle, too, is smooth and steady with not one instance of high & low idle.  Not sure how the new map affects, if at all, stepper motor operation, but I got none of the (annoying and occasionally embarrassing) 2K+ idle run at stops.  The decel engine-brake effect I mentioned with the GRiSO was, if anything, more pronounced on the Norge.  Again, as this is my two-up machine, I can use all the stabilizing assistance I can get, and throttle maintenance in curves is critical in keeping my Polish Princess Perfect Pillion … well, perfect.

I will say that I do think I could detect — as I could not with the GRiSO — more oomph in the get-up-&-go side of whacking the throttle.  Unlike “Some People” on this forum  Razz , I happen to like my firstgen Norge’s 2v/4v engine, and actually prefer it to the (three) 8v Norges I have ridden.  It’s never been a powerhouse, but it was, IMO, just fine.  It’s now better than that.  Again, not sure if that’s more than owner imagination, but I thought roll-on — which I played with on purpose on some straight stretches — had more grunt than just noise.  

The jury is, as stated, still out on the Stornello.  It, too, was running pretty darn fine on latest OEM map.  When we started it on the lift, however, it, too, started instantly, and sounded stupendous.  Yes, I don't have a clue if mapping affects exhaust note, but my, oh, my, that rasping snarl coming sure sounded better than I remembered.

OK, enough.  Again, all subjective, but it’s my subjective, and I am very pleased.  

Thanks, Mark!

Bill


Last edited by Bill Hagan on Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:43 am

Nice report Bill, I recall when I first put a Beetle map in my GRiSO, I thought what the heck? It felt if anything less powerful down low and flat from there up. The map had removed the two stroke "powerband' which fooled me into thinking I had lost power. What it has done is too smooth everything out, from idle to really officer! I think you radar is malfunctioning. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:44 am

Oh and fuel economy has improved by a substantial amount.
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:55 pm

You may be interested to know, Bill, that I have had several map recipients complain bitterly about the improvement in engine braking. Others have raged over the "loss" of power due to the absence of the kick at 5000.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:03 pm

Some people would complain if their dick was on fire too. Idiots.
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:24 pm

Can`t wait for the 1400 motor map to come out, the lack of decel is distracting at best. Glad to hear you noticed some improvements.

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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:34 am

beetle wrote:
You may be interested to know, Bill, that I have had several map recipients complain bitterly about the improvement in engine braking. Others have raged over the "loss" of power due to the absence of the kick at 5000.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯



Thanks, Mark.

Shamefully susceptible to suggestion, I purposely did not read or reread any previous comments here about mapping results before my test rides on GRiSO and Norge.  I did not want to influence my immediate reactions to the change, if any.  I remain glad I took that approach.

I am pretty sure that the decel difference is a big positive for me.  I have always thought that throttle maintenance is the key to smooth (and safe) riding in turns, and that fuel delivery "on the downside" made that difficult, at least for me.  Now, not.  Very pleased.

And, while I was unable, in conscience, to note any particular acceleration enhancement in the GRiSO, it sure isn't slower.  I really may have to put on a dyno sometime just know how the numbers, vice my gut, record reality.

So, yes, all around, I am so happy I made the change ... and I am even happier that I had competent young help who could do it for me in minutes, not the weeks and curses it would have taken me.   cheers

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:16 am

wyno wrote:
Some people would complain if their dick was on fire too. Idiots.

This must be lost in translation, because i would definatley complain if my Dick was on fire !
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:42 am

Yes, that's correct. AND they have no idea on how to put the fire out.
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:33 pm

Basically it means that they complain all the time....and no one wants to listen to them anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:40 pm

beetle wrote:
You may be interested to know, Bill, that I have had several map recipients complain bitterly about the improvement in engine braking. Others have raged over the "loss" of power due to the absence of the kick at 5000.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I'll never understand that.  On the Tenere forum, lots of people complain about the engine braking of the bike and have theirs remapped to reduce or eliminate it.  Why would anyone prefer to add brakes in a corner when a small throttle adjustment would correct your entrance to the corner?  

Back to MG content...  Still waiting impatiently to get to Fort Collins for a test ride on a GRiSO.  Two more weeks...
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:17 am



This is L.O.N.G.  Get a cup of coffee or beer or whatever ... or just skip.   Wink

I have now taken the Stornello out twice since having the new map installed.  Temps (and rain-washed) roads made it pleasant and safe, tho both of those conditions are gone for another burst of winter now.  C'est la vie; makes for garage time.  Very Happy

So, after the reports, above, on how Beetle's maps worked on the GRiSO and Norge -- BLUF?  Stupendous -- I wondered how it might work on the Stornello.

So, I was out a total of about four hours on two days.  As before, on all sorts of pavement except the slab.  In addition, I rode gravel, dirt, and dunno-what-but-less off-pavement at various speeds.  Obviously, however, as a confirmed poseur and coward, the less pavement, the lower my speed. Rolling Eyes

Brief first impressions are, with one slight exception as to "impact," similar to GRiSO and Norge.  Very happy.  Let me restate that more clearly: VERY HAPPY.  

I should say up front that the latest version of the factory map isn't bad.  That cured the LONG warm-up woes of the original version, and was otherwise fine to my indiscriminate FI palate.

Beetle's?  

No change from OEM WRT instant start without stumble.  Able to go from pulling trigger, but it's always fun just to play Harley and blip it a bit for that Italian tenor snarl.  cheers

If anything, I think the new map's fuel delivery is possibly better on the V7 II than on the  GRiSO and Norge, but that is both a subjective call from someone who is pre-analog, much less digital, and also is not following back-to-back comparisons within days, much less hours. 

But, to me, through the gears on pavement, the power band seems to be as linear as linear can be.  

Now, here comes that (ever-so-slight) difference I mentioned above: I noted that surprising engine-braking effect in the beetle v. OEM maps.  It is clearly there with the V7, but simply not as "dramatic" -- not the right word, but best I can do after too much coffee this a.m. -- as I felt on the GRiSO and Norge.  I suppose (at risk of being hooted down by the cognoscenti) that this yet another area where size matters, as 750 is braking lots less than 1200.  Whatever the reason, it's what I think felt, anyway.

Having said that, the decel is, with the others, without any popping whatever, and is also significant irrespective of size, so that the same positive descent instead of rpm dive makes lowering speed predictable and safer even when "chopping" the throttle in a panic -- and, happily, planned panic in all but a few cases on the Stornello rides.

I suspect there is a relationship that is too nuanced for me to understand between ABS, TC, and FI maps.  And, for the most part, that has not been a concern.  On the Stornello, however, with its off-road pretensions and my poseur personality, I find myself going boldly where perhaps I should not go at all!  

For example, several times on these Stornello "test days," I found myself in potential trouble.  On three occasions, I descended some comparatively steep hills -- as in scared me feceless, but no way to stop, turn around, or anything but continue -- on gravel or dirt roads.

The gravel, in particular, is especially worrisome when thick; moreover, I had not disengaged TC or disabled ABS.  But, even tho I had crested the hilltop at speed and immediately saw that what goes up, etc., the effect of engine braking make all controllable and all the way down (and upright).  I collected what was left of my wits at the bottom, vowed to be smarter the next time, and, naturally, within minutes ... wasn't.  jocolor

I really think that the improved controlled throttle response during decel is critically important -- at least to me, a tyro at off-pavement riding.

As with the others, no real clue about fuel economy, tho, while hardly irrelevant, that's a minor issue to me.

That's (way more than) enough, I suppose, to say why I am very pleased with the new maps.

So, grazie mille, Mark, for your smarts and sweat in creating these maps ... and Martin, for installing them!

Bill

P.S.  Oh, wait ... a few pix.   cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:07 pm

I can't believe I read the whole thing!

Seriously, good write up, Bill!


cheers



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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:42 pm

Bill Hagan wrote:


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Bill, Where's the bridge? Over here it's called a "dip" and is even better when covered in "bike wash" - maybe you need to do it several times from different directions, just to make sure...

Good write up though.
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:12 pm

Bill Hagan wrote:


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If you're covered with water, what are you doing out there in the first place?
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:19 pm

Ha, Ha I was thinking "Where's that confounded bridge" but Bill might be too old to know that saying.
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:58 am

A famous quote form a famous band - Bill would not know it
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:31 am


^^^^^^

Guilty, Your Honor. Embarassed

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:47 am

Led Zepplin The Crunge lyrics towards the end of the song

[Bridge]
Ah, excuse me
Oh will you excuse me
I'm just trying to find the bridge!
Has anybody seen the bridge?
Please!
(Have you seen the bridge?)
I ain't seen the bridge!
(Where's that confounded bridge?)
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:49 am

GuzziSteve wrote:
Ha, Ha I was thinking "Where's that confounded bridge" but Bill might be too old to know that saying.

How old would he have to be to not know that LOL I am 68 and had some good times listening to that song
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:35 am


cognosticator wrote:
GuzziSteve wrote:
Ha, Ha I was thinking "Where's that confounded bridge" but Bill might be too old to know that saying.

How old would he have to be to not know that  LOL  I am 68 and had some good times listening to that song

I am 1947 vintage, but was a noncombatant in the various "revolutions" of the Woodstockian age.  Thankfully, I caught up with tail end -- NPI, but I like the thought jocolor -- of the "S" one.  Very Happy

The only time I've knowingly been around illegal drugs has been in the courtroom as a lawyer (at one time or another for both sides of those affairs).   study

And -- tho I was drummer into my 40's in all sorts of bands, including rock ones -- I never cared for that genre.  I've never intentionally listened to any R&R (or worse).  And, I think it's somehow wrong to use the word "concert" when discussing music written after ... hmmmm ... 1912. No

So, yeah, get off my lawn!  Evil or Very Mad

But, the above notwithstanding, I am about to go down to spend the rest of the day in the Moto Grappa.  I might listen to Alison Balsom, who scratches all sorts of itches. Wink



Bill
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:52 am

Well, I was(am) a Zepplin fan, and I kinda knew Bill wasn't. Nothing wrong w/that, lot's of music I don't listen to.
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PostSubject: Re: Bill Hagan's Butt Dyno on Beetle's Maps for GRiSO, Norge, & Stornello   Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:02 am

Bill what I noticed the most about Mark's map is just how much smoother you become as a rider in tight stuff like Wolf Pen Gap. I used to ride most of that road in 2nd and it was always a herky jerky mess. After the mapping I noticed that I used 3rd much more than before and had no fear of stalling in the corners. You just apply brake and grunt right through there. The bike seems like it will pull 3rd from idle now.

I can't wait to get back to my GRiSO! Wayne took the shock over to Traxxion and they've compensated for my fat ass on the rear. Hopefully this summer Smile
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