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 NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....

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Bulldog9
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PostSubject: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:27 pm

So I looked at a Norge today in Bellevue, seemed an impossibly low price, 1500 miles 2014 model great price of $8900.... Hmmmm too good to be true, but you never know so I went up to take a look. And what did my eyes spy?

Strike 1 - Left lower and side fairing scuffed up, looked like a low speed drop. Not too bad. NO scuffing on saddlebag so either the bag was off when dropped or outer cover was replaced. I think latter. Not a deal breaker, especially at $8900.

Strike 2 - Electricals a bit sketchy - Onboard computer did not cycle through modes reliably, or reset as was supposed to. Was stuck in trip 1 mode couldnt get to go to trip 2 or the menu.  Wiring looked all out of place, plugs hanging, and wires not grouped properly on the bars. ABS wouldn't engage until I shut it off then on again. Hmmmmm

Strike 3 - Engine - when cold the bike would stumble for a second before catching up. Once warmed up at stoplights bike would idle at 2K then settle down to 1K after 5-6 seconds.  Finally, the motor stumbled severely at 5800 RPM and would not rev past 6200 RPM.  Acceleration up to this point was normal.  Bike clearly needed a valve adjustment was 2-3X louder with the clackety than my 1100 GRiSO.

Here is the link. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Seller is a private dealer, seems like a nice guy and all his vehicles are clean low mileage bikes, but I think the bike is a repo or recovery from theft, maybe a flood or salvaged bike of some sort. NOT what I am interested in. I want a turn key ready to farkle, but READY.

This was a good experience, I was hot to trot for the value and deal, but will keep looking, and will compare a Stelvio to the Norge, and maybe the California, but I dont think I am ready for that. I still want the Norge, but so many people say that the Stelvio is a better tourer, and the ability to go off road a bit on trails, etc makes it appealing. Just have to convince my lovely wife to ride..... OR maybe that will be bike 3... heheheheheh

Anyhow, If you are looking for a great deal on a Norge and dont mind chasing down the issues above, this could be good for you.


Last edited by Bulldog9 on Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Street
GRiSO Capo
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Street

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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:52 pm

Sounds like a lot of issues for such low mileage. There isn't even any color on the headers yet. Makes you wonder what's really going on. It would definitely make me nervous, you were probably wise to walk away.
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Bulldog9
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:02 pm

After doing some research, looks like aside from the wiring being a bit out of sorts, the electrical issues were operator error.  Also, after riding the GRiSO yesterday, the valve and engine noise were not as bad as I thought, just normal Guzzi noises, though an oil change and valve adjust would be done right away.

The motor definately does NOT rev past 6K. It is not a fuel cut off, felt more like a clogged high speed jet, but with FI not sure what to make of it. The hang at slow return to Idle tells me vaccum leak or sticking stepper motor thing.

Not knowing enough about MG's in general, This could be burnt valves clogged up FI injectors, bad gas, vacuum leak and several other things.

I shot the guy an e-mail and offered $6500 just for kicks, A 2014 with 1500 miles and a few problems for that would be a steal, He will likely say no and I will probably not go for it, but I love the chase....
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Bulldog9
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:22 pm

I just heard back from the seller, he says the bike was not Insurance lost but was traded in at a Harley dealer and he has the paperwork to prove that. He also said 7250 would be the lowest he would go. Thoughts from anyone on this? Could it be as simple as clogged fuel injectors? Or valve adjust tune up and ECU refresh? I'm tempted because it is the bike I've been looking at and thinking about and would be a great value. Would appreciate any feedback from knowing Guzziologists.
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Bill Hagan
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:00 pm

Very curious what the gurus say about this.

Any way you can have M-I check it out?

Seems to me (at a comfortable distance Rolling Eyes ) that it would be worth the cost of transport and knowledgeable diagnosis if the owner will let you.

Bill

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:11 pm

It may have been serviced by a shaved ape. Check that the sacred screw hasn't been interfered with. Clogged air filter. What did the throttle feel like? Both air bleeds open.



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Bulldog9
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:50 pm

The Throttle feels fine mechanically, no binding, ect. On initial the engine gasps/pauses for a minute then catches up. Power in lower revs feels about like the other Norge's I have ridden, but instead of catching fire at 6K it falls on its face.

Knowing some of the back story, and source, my gut tells me will be a relatively simple fix, vacuum leak, bad gas, clogged injectors, loose fitting or connector of some sort. I'm going to go for it, will be a great way to get acquainted/intimate with the bike. Would a vacuum hose being off the TB cause the hesitation at initial throttle input and motor falling on its face at 6K?. I once had a bike run this way due to a loose intake boot, but that was CV carbs.

By sacred screw I assuming you are talking about air balance screw set at factory?

Looking for a couple threads on the stepper motor, vacuum hose layout and routing, s, bleed valve on these TB

I'll do a full tune up, oil change pull the plastic off to get to the throttle bodies, valve adjust, check out the whole TB and airbox areas, etc, go over the whole bike. Will also drain the gas, put in some lucas or seafoam cleaner, then when that is all done see if I can beg some help and a TB sync/TPS reset from one of the local MG guys (what kind of beer do you like Steak & Street? Very Happy lol) If that doesn't work, I will make an appt at MI to get it sorted.

The dealer confirmed the PO and that the bike was traded for a Harley. He told me he looked the guy up on FB, gave me the name and I confirmed, looks like he traded it in April for the Sportster. No mention of an accident, but he did show the bike and rode it without the bags which tells me why the fairing was scraped but not the side bag. Guy seems like a bit of a poser, from LA, tons of pics with him sitting on motorcycles with pretty jackets........ sorry about the judgement, lol......... But to trade for a Sportster?

At $7200 for a 1500 mile 2014 Norge, how wrong can I go? I'm gonna find out that is for sure.... I diddnt want a project, but hey I just sold a BMW, what else am I gonna do with my extra time, and what better way to learn MG than this??

I won't be in a rush to get the bike going, and the GRiSO will keep me happy in the meantime. I just want to have the Norge ready for my surprise trip with my wife down the PCH to the glass beach on Labor Day weekend. that's the main reason I want the Norge, for long weekend trips, touring with the wife, etc. The GRiSO is pure fun and thuggery day trips.

I wont crowd the Ghetto up with the Norge stuff. Is there a Board for the Norge other than Gu$$i Tech?


beetle wrote:
It may have been serviced by a shaved ape. Check that the sacred screw hasn't been interfered with. Clogged air filter. What did the throttle feel like? Both air bleeds open.



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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:44 am

Just use the Combustion Chamber here.





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Grignapoco
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NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Empty
PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:29 am

I agree with Bill, you should run it by Moto Int'l and have Micha check it out. They probably sold it new and might have more info for you, and they could certainly diagnose the problems.
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Bulldog9
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:01 pm

I bought it, he took my super low ball offer which was his cost. Saw his bill of sale. Definatey needs a valve adjustment, and it is throwing a code 23 for ground of #1 coil, but the running issue was gummed up injectors, on the 50 mile ride home the motor cleared enough to idle solid and pulls easily to 6500. Plan a full tune up. Interesting, I think I triggered the service light and code 23, was goofing with it in the garage and let off the starter too soon twice in a row (cause I'm dumb) on the third attempt the light popped on. Tried to reset with the onboard controls but won't. Question, when you select clear error messages, do you get a confirmation after you select yes? Or does it just go back to prior menu? I'm not going to ride it until I do a full service, oil change etc.
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wardentm
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:08 pm

On'ya BD
Hope it all turns out good for you, enjoy and learn.
Greetings from Tasmania
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Steak
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:30 am

I'd be happy to help with a TB balance etc. I'm out of town and will be heading for Deep (rain) Forest this weekend, but we could coordinate a time next week. Maybe in Georgetown at Pete's place.

I think you got a good deal on that one. Shouldn't be too much to sort out.

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Street
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:40 am

I'm up for that. Caleb may be interested in joining us too. Have fun at Randle and we'll talk when you get back.

Steve (BD9), sounds like you scored a good'un - the issues sounded daunting at first glance, but now it looks like you got a great deal and should have an easy time of sorting it out. Good job.

Pete
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jeremyb
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:28 pm

>> the running issue was gummed up injectors, on the 50 mile ride home the motor cleared enough to idle solid and pulls easily to 6500

Ah - you gave it the infamous "Italian Tune-Up " !
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Bulldog9
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:52 pm

Thanks for the good words all, and offers for help Steak/Street, that sounds great. I'll bring the beer. Viva la Fiesta

I talked to Dave at MI today, going to take a trip up to MI Saturday AM to buy parts for my tuneup. Oil, filter supplies, exhaust gasket, plug caps (preventative).

At 1500 miles I'm NOT going to check the air filter (OMG........ where is the easy button....???!!!) or change trans or diff fluids.  I pulled the lower fairing bits off, and the bike is like new, no dust, rust dirt, grime, etc. Haven't checked the suspension settings yet, but let me just say what a SWEET ride this bike has. Cant wait to get it sorted out, but IMO, the GRiSO is the beast.........

Here is what I found on first look.

1. The dude who had it rode the bike like an old lady, brake pads glazed, two finger chickenstrips rear 3 front, and I be he never rev'd the motor past 5000 RPM. Once I get the valves adjusted and get the right oil in it will get out and ride some more, just the short 50 mile trip home cleared much of the junk out, figure it will take a tank or two of fuel to get the injectors and combustion chambers cleaned up. **The PO traded the Norge in for a little Sportster...... Need I say more?

2. I think whoever did the oil change used the wrong oil (based on feel of viscosity comparing to the GRiSO and a white? filter. Purolator?

3. Service light came on when I got home, checked codes, is showing code 23 coil ground problem on cyl 1. and WONT reset. When I took spark plug wires off to get ready to check valves, found the #1 HT lead was wedged between the head and frame, and the outer sheathing was cut. Not the silicone over the wire, but the plastic cover.  Will see if fixing this allows the code to be cleared. I also have the battery disconnected.

4. Plugs looked great, no visible wear and the right color. Are a dual electrode NGK, forget the ## will put back in with antiseize.

5. #2 cyl (left) exhaust gasket is leaking. Tried to tighten but no help. Will replace.

6. Lower left fairing is buggered up, will try to match up with touch up paint, cant see unless you bend over but the rest of the bike looks so good............

7. All the electricals work, heated grips, ABS on and off, Computer, etc.

I think a combination of bad valve adjust, clogged injectors, leaking exhaust gasket have all conspired to make it run a bit like crap. Once I get all this done then balance the TB's and reset the TPS, should be ready to ride.

If you cant tell, I'm super happy with the addition and price, hopefully can resolve all the issues with little drama. Once I get the bike 100% mechanically will add the rear case and likely a custom Corbin seat with heat and an extra inch of seat height, and some aux LED lighting and backoff license plate light.

While everything is apart will add a dash mounted USB power outlet, clean the battery connections and use the dielectric grease and install tender lead.

OK, diner and beer complete, time to go measure and set valves.

Thanks again all!


Last edited by Bulldog9 on Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Steak
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:56 pm

At 1500 miles, the white oil filter is likely an UFI installed at the factory...

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Bulldog9
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:28 pm

ECU code will not reset, when I select Rest & YES, it just goes back to prior screen and does not give Reset Complete message the same as the service reset does.    I swapped the HT leads side to side to see if the lead was the problem, but it still says #23.  Will probably need the big boy computer stuff.

Bike started first kick idled beautiful, revved nicely once warmed up a bit. BIG improvement in sound and feel. Still getting use to the raucous nature of the Guzzi.

Steak, I looked up in the well, and it has those blue letters, so is likely the filter the stealer put on and likely the right oil, but insuring the right oil for peace of mind is worth it to me.

Progress! Hopefully the guru's and guzzitech cable thing can clear the ecu code.


Last edited by Bulldog9 on Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:14 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Steak
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:47 am

ECU 23: Error Ignition coil 1 C.C. Gnd

Continued fault?

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Bulldog9
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:56 am

Steak wrote:
ECU 23:  Error Ignition coil 1 C.C. Gnd

Continued fault?

Yes,  that is the one, the fault will not reset. I eliminated the HT lead as a source by swapping sides. Next step is to unplug the coil and check the wires/ground to the coil, maybe swap sides to see if I can get it to clear or change to other side. May also check the connection at the ECU, but that means pulling the fuel tank and that doesnt look fun Embarassed

My gut tells me this is a glitch in the ECU and false alarm that will require a reset or reflash, I triggered the problem when starting and my finger slipped off the starte too fast before it started 2X, and on the 2nd try the triangle of death came and has stayed on. Unlikely a coil went bad, or ground just dropped off, but we will see. I hope to have it sorted before I bring it up your way to do the balance and TPS reset.


Last edited by Bulldog9 on Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:34 pm; edited 2 times in total
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g®eg
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:02 am

get yourself a beetle map in that puppy once it's sorted & you won't believe how nice it is!
congrats
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nwreed
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:19 am

I'd certainly be in for one night next week for a tune-up learning session *grin*.

- Caleb
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Bulldog9
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:37 pm

Went to MI today, picked up oil and filters, and the correct spark plugs, exhaust gasket, spent the rest of the day doing an oil change, plug change, gasket, put all the body work on and went for a ride. All went well, well kinda.......

Found out the Norge is under warranty till 29 September 2017......  The PO bought it 29 September 2015. This is good news.

I changed the oil and filter, swapped out the plugs, put all the fairing pieces back in place, and went for a 60 mile ride in the rain......It's the PNW right? That is why I bought this beastie....... All weather fun.

The Norge 8V valve train is MUCH louder than the GRiSO 1100 ............... I imagine this is due to the cam in head layout, with the gear/chain cam, roller followers and double the valves in the head. Kinda sounds like an old school Guzzi....  Has anyone experimented with tighter clearances? I run 0 clearance on my Porsche 912 with swivel foot adjusters. Just a thought.

Here is a pic of the plugs left is right right is wrong

How the bike can have the wrong oil, wrong plugs and WAY OFF valve adjust in 1500 miles? Are some dealers that inept? Unless the PO was a total maroon...............

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Last edited by Bulldog9 on Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bulldog9
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PostSubject: Re: NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....    NON GRiSO - Looked at a Norge and passed.... ummm I mean went for it....  Icon_minitime1Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:02 am

Took a little ride after church today, 372 miles... The bike is running great but still acts like it has a governor at 6200 RPM.  I initially thought it was clogged injectors, but after almost 1000 miles, it still does it like someone flips a switch. I've checked air filter, all TB connections (that I can see), new plugs, adjusted valves, balanced TB & reset TPS. The only thing left is to change the Fuel filter.  

Is it possible someone played with the Mapping and set a governor? Time to get the ECU reflashed with an updated factory map.  It really feels like it is electrical.

The bike pulls strong at WOT until 6200, has great driveability from idle. No surging, pulls strong and smooth then almost like a soft fuel cut off for redline, it bogs,  makes that guzzi honk thing, and holds at 6200-6500 rpm and. acts like the fuel gets dialed back. If I go very light on throttle and hold in gear it will rev to redline, but any real throttle input and it boggs.  

I'm making an appt at MI tomorrow, and get on the schedule. I really wanted to figure it out myself, but I think it needs a factory reflash. Its still under warranty so will let them sort it out.

**GRiSO content - also rode the GRiSO for a couple hundred miles yesterday, MAN what a blast this bike is. Everything is so sharp and responsive and comfortable. Funny, untill I rode the 8V Norge, I thought the GRiSO was loud and clackety and had a noisy motor, but compared to the Norge other than the clutch, the 1100 GRiSO is quiet lol.....

** steak, feel free to move this whole thread to whatever area is appropriate I don't want to keep discussing a non-greasy in the Forum.

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