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racepics
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:49 pm

Hi all - My GRiSO started running on one cylinder.
( I have read through some massive posts about this problem and tried a few of the things suggested but still she's a single..)

I was running reasonably hard through the 1st, 2nd, 3rd gears (about 6500rpm) and when I buttoned off it cut to one cylinder.
Things I have checked so far:
Visible spark at both plugs.
Swapped plugs, and coils/leads left to right - still left cylinder is dead.
Swapped injectors left with right - still left cylinder is dead.
Checked valve clearances - ok.
Compression test - ok ( 150psi actually the dead cyl has more than the runner)
No error codes on dash although it did show a flashing spanner symbol a couple of times. Logged in to diagnostic and reset it - spanner symbol has not reappeared, but still running on one...
Took the tank off and checked every plug/connector I could see.
Unplgged the ECU visual check connections look good.
Can't see any bad connections anywhere - bike is essentially brand new (even though its an 08 model) and has only done 1500km.
Stumped so far



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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:12 pm

Right. Let's start with the obvious. Fuel, spark, compression.

You say it has spark and you've swapped bits so we can probably rule that out. You have checked that the spark isn't jumping to earth at the bend in the cap. How did you remove the plug caps? You didn't tug on them did you? Had they been removed prior to you getting the bike?

Fuel? Pull the injector on the offending side and hold it into the fuel fitting and turn the engine over on the starter while pointing it away from yourself. Is the injector firing. (Unplug the coils before you do this so the engine doesn't fire. This will throw a service warning on the dash, don't worry about it.) if it's firing you have fuel.

Compression? 150 is a bit low but it should run with that.

Is it throwing any error codes? Do you know how to use the OBD?

The wrench icon on the dash flashing was probably because you are approaching the first service point. After you pass it it will come on solid until you re-set it.

Right now my guess is your plug caps are damaged and the spark is jumping to earth. Both are probably buggered but the worst side is jumping. Take the plug lead covers off and fire it up briefly and look and listen for the spark snapping to earth at the top of the cap, most likely on the inside of the right angle bend. Replace the caps with NGK SB05E or F caps depending on top electrode type.

Before you do any riding I strongly suggest you rollerise it. It's flat tappets are going to fail. Getting to them before they do is the best thing to avoid risk to your engine.

It's current map is shite. That can easily be fixed once it's rollerised.

It's swingarm and linkage bearings need greasing. Get to that soon.

Do NOT muck about with the throttle bodies AT ALL until you understand how the W5AM system works.

Get cables and Guzzidiag.

Pete
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:21 pm

Check ECU connector and pins. Check continuity between the injector and ECU.





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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:31 pm

If its dropped an injector because it's OC I'd expect to see an error code?
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racepics
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:44 pm

Thanks Pete. Plug caps came out quite easily with gentle leverage. I doubt they've ever been off before as the bike had only 6km on it when I bought it. The previous owner bought it new but never rode it, Stuck it in his lounge to look at...
I will visit the local bike shops and see if they've got those new caps in stock.

Have just done the injector test and it seems to be squirting/misting nicely

No error codes in the diagnostic for ECU or Dash. OBD?

Rollerising? So I read that most were done under warranty - mine is obviously way past any warranty (time wise) so I will need to purchase the required bits - ballpark cost?

The map is shit? I thought it ran sweet.. But then I've never ridden any others.

Will look at getting the cables and software - I think this is going to be out of action for a while..

Cheers
Chris
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racepics
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:47 pm

beetle wrote:
Check ECU connector and pins. Check continuity between the injector and ECU.

Ok so I need to find a wiring diagram and try to figure it out..
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:59 pm

racepics wrote:


Ok so I need to find a wiring diagram and try to figure it out..


You can download one from this forum. In GRiSO Ex Libris.




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racepics
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:02 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
If its dropped an injector because it's OC I'd expect to see an error code?

Injector seems to be working fine, plus I swapped them side to side but the same side is still dead. No error codes under the diagnostic menu of the dash
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:02 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
If its dropped an injector because it's OC I'd expect to see an error code?


Indeed. If he's swapped injectors, and the fault didn't follow, it can only be wiring or ECU.




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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:03 pm

racepics wrote:
Thanks Pete. Plug caps came out quite easily with gentle leverage. I doubt they've ever been off before as the bike had only 6km on it when I bought it. The previous owner bought it new but never rode it, Stuck it in his lounge to look at...
I will visit the local bike shops and see if they've got those new caps in stock.

Have just done the injector test and it seems to be squirting/misting nicely

No error codes in the diagnostic for ECU or Dash. OBD?

Rollerising? So I read that most were done under warranty - mine is obviously way past any warranty (time wise) so I will need to purchase the required bits - ballpark cost?

The map is shit? I thought it ran sweet.. But then I've never ridden any others.

Will look at getting the cables and software - I think this is going to be out of action for a while..

Cheers
Chris

Yup, OBD-On Board Diagnostics.

There was a recall early on that had the early chilled cast iron tappets replaced with forged steel DLC coated tappets. Both were flat tappet designs. There was never a recall per-se when the rollerisation option became available, Piaggio tried to hide the issue but if the bike has a full, documented, service history then when they fail the factory may, if your dealer goes in to bat for you, give you the kit but you will still have to pay for the installation. There is usually a ten year moratorium on this sort of fix so if your bike is a 2008 time will be running out and the tappets HAVE to fail before they will consider it. hing is they will all fail, they just hope they will last long enough for them to deny responsibility.

If you decide to just do it your bike will need the most complex and expensive 'C' Kit which costs about $1,500 but you can cut the cost down on that a bit. Installation is about five hours give or take. If you don't trust anyone in NZ to do it Michael or I will fly over and do it for you, we've done it before!

There are many threads here with pics showing the difference between roller and flat tappets. You can see as soon as you've whipped a rocker cover off. I'd be very surprised if yours has been rollerised but you might be lucky. If yours is running sort of OK then maybe it's been updated to the 68S map or the GRS8V-03 map. If it still had the earliest map it would be a gutless, stuttering horror below 5,500!

Pete
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:20 pm

Are you 100% sure spark is good? Its a shame you don't have GuzziDiag. You can test spark and injectors.



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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:47 pm

Pete Roper wrote:


If you decide to just do it your bike will need the most complex and expensive 'C' Kit which costs about $1,500 but you can cut the cost down on that a bit. Installation is about five hours give or take. If you don't trust anyone in NZ to do it Michael or I will fly over and do it for you, we've done it before!

There are many threads here with pics showing the difference between roller and flat tappets. You can see as soon as you've whipped a rocker cover off. I'd be very surprised if yours has been rollerised but you might be lucky. If yours is running sort of OK then maybe it's been updated to the 68S map or the GRS8V-03 map. If it still had the earliest map it would be a gutless, stuttering horror below 5,500!

Pete

Thanks I'll keep that in mind. Will see if I can get the roller kit here in NZ first (probably not but worth a try)

I think it must be on the good map because it pulls like a school boy down low and scares the crap outa me up top Very Happy
It does 'flutter' a bit at neutral throttle when just burbling along in town but thats all cool.

I assume this is standard tappets
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:23 pm

They're flatties.


No


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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:35 pm

beetle wrote:
Are you 100% sure spark is good? Its a shame you don't have GuzziDiag. You can test spark and injectors.

Will replace the caps anyway as they seem to have a troubled history.
Also in the process of borrowing a guzzidiag cable from a bloke up the road (I hope) then hopefully learn how to use it. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:15 pm

As Mark sez, they're flats.

On the kit don't bother buying locally, it will be more expensive than bringing it in from Europe.

Cheapest way is to buy a 'B' kit and add the bits I've listed in the thread on the subject. Then just buy the head gaskets you need. I have kits in stock if you want to buy closer to home, my prices are the same as you'd pay if you buy from TLM, I make a bit on trade discount. I doubt very much there will be a kit in stock in NZ but you could try Moto Kiwi he seems to have a good rep.

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:51 pm

Oh, removing the caps should always be done by sticking a long, thin screwdriver through the cooling tunnel at the front of the head and levering the cap up off the plug. If you used even 'Gentle leverage' under the right angle of the cap the chances are you split the cap. While it may still spark fine when you hold the cap with the plug in it to the head so you can see the spark chances are in the hostile conditions in the combustion chamber the spark will look for the path of least resistance and the caps will be it.

Tonight, as suggested, take the plug lead covers off and fire the bike up in the dark and look and listen for the spark snapping to earth. I'm pretty certain this will be the problem as it is really common.

Pete
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sidrat
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:00 am

To change the subject slightly, what a find! 6Km from new and stored in a front room, how cool.
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:05 am

Nonsense! Nothing will kill a machine better than not using it!
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:18 am

Indeed Mr Roper, but still a find never the less, amazing that there are still such mahines available!
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:02 am

There's a 2016 Red GRiSO with just 650 miles on clock at Kawasaki Bristol....probably swapped for a Ninja H2R as latest garage porn....description is hilarious given it effectively IS new.."Only just turned over 600 miles. One owner from new, this bike is like new., Full service history, Excellent bodywork, Tyre condition Excellent, 2 keys. Matt Red, £8,490 p/x welcome "
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:24 am

Check all your relays and fuses, I've had mine come loose a few times and drop onto one cylinder.
Injector relay ................... hi speed ............... rough road .................
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:15 am

ghezzi wrote:
Check all your relays and fuses, I've had mine come loose a few times and drop onto one cylinder.
Injector relay ................... hi speed ............... rough road .................

These relays are the ones under the right side cover beside the air filter yes?
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:33 pm

racepics wrote:
ghezzi wrote:
Check all your relays and fuses, I've had mine come loose a few times and drop onto one cylinder.
Injector relay ................... hi speed ............... rough road .................

These relays are the ones under the right side cover beside the air filter yes?

Dunno, I ride a bastardized Bellagio.
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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:48 pm

racepics wrote:

These relays are the ones under the right side cover beside the air filter yes?


Yes.




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PostSubject: Re: Dropped a cylinder    Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:49 pm

Ok so new plug caps didn't change anything.
I don't know how to check the relays electrically - they look fine as far as damage to pins etc there is none.
Would it be possible for a timing chain to jump a tooth?
Using a screwdriver down the plug hole to find TDC, the locating pin on the cam gear is right at the top - seems right?

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