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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:22 pm

Oh the harmonics are very interesting. Everything else in the exhaust, (Or inlet tract.) changes constantly. The speed of sound doesn't, or not in any meaningful way. That's why tuned length is critical and why on a GRiSO ts a really good idea to keep the 'Pretzel' in the 'Zorst!
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MrGPz
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:32 pm

Anyway, back to the subject,
I talked to my dealer about loading the map during the warranty period, and he said "who's going to know?"
So, I put beetle's map in, and put on an arrow exhaust.

Around town, roundabouts etc, it is now smooth without the on/off switch.
Mileage shows up as 7lt/100km around town, 6lt/100km on the road, need to take into account that I have reset my speedo to show true speed (checked via GPS) and therefore odometer reading is less.
otherwise I get 190-220kms til the fuel light comes on.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:38 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Oh the harmonics are very interesting. Everything else in the exhaust, (Or inlet tract.) changes constantly. The speed of sound doesn't, or not in any meaningful way. That's why tuned length is critical and why on a GRiSO ts a really good idea to keep the 'Pretzel' in the 'Zorst!


I could go on & on. Typing it down and checking grammar & punctuation shits me. Fuctifino how you wrote that essay in the oil thread. I'm easily distract....


Ooh! Look! Something shiny!




bounce




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Street
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:55 pm

PunkScout wrote:
Goddamnit, why does it have to be the other American that replies to a chat about engines with a picture from his chiropractors office?

Yeah, that guy can be a real jerk some times. Just ignore him, he's too clever by half. Very annoying.
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sideshowbob
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:13 pm

At least he's not witty by half.
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PunkScout
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:56 am

beetle wrote:
PunkScout wrote:
Sure there is. Back pressure as I understand it is the pressure differential between your exhaust valve and the end of the exhaust pipe.  If you didn't have back pressure  the engine wouldn't run very good as the cylinder would be full of exhaust gas.  This is a highly dynamic system and at points there isn't but on average there is. Otherwise exhaust gas wouldn't leave the engine.  Here's a pretty cool article on it: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   - it's a little weird in places, but it's fundamentally correct.

Are we defining back pressure in the same way?


What can I say? You're wrong. Back pressure is a bad thing.

How much pressure to drag racing engines have? Diddly squat.

Consider gas flowing in a pipe. For it to flow, the pressure at one end must be greater than the other. The gas flowing through the pipe is affected by the drag created from the pipe itself. This is back pressure. Fortunately, the engine creates the differential to ensure the gas goes out the end.

The engine creates the differential, but it's the size, shape, and length of the exhaust that affects the speed of the exhaust gas. The smaller the pipe, the greater the velocity, the wider the pipe, the lesser. Fluid dynamics 101.

So if you stick a big wide open exhaust on, you get less back pressure. Win! Oh wait, I've got no bottom end torque, therefore, I need back pressure. No! Wrong!

Each puff of gas from the exhaust valve has a little packet of vacuum following it. The higher the gas velocity, the greater the vacuum. So, to get the best scavenging affect, we need a smaller diameter pipe. This helps the engine pull all the burnt shit out of the combustion chamber. This has the most affect at low RPM, as there's plenty of time for the little vacuum packets to pull the gas from the chamber. As RPM increases, the gas flow appears constant and less pulsey (I don't think that is a word), so scavenging affect is reduced at higher RPM. So, at low rpm I need a small pipe to maximize scavenging, and at high rpm I need a big pipe to minimize pressure drop. That's why an EXUP system works so well. We don't have such luxury in our bikes, so we must compromise on the size and length of our exhaust pipe.

Ergo, torque has everything to do with gas velocity, and nought to do with back pressure.

And I didn't even mention sound pressure waves. They really fuck things up.

So if you think back pressure is a good thing, remove your headers and stick something into the end of each one, with a 3/4 inch hole in it. That willl give you bulk back pressure and almost zero scavenging. Let me know how much better your bike runs.


End of pontification.








I'm going out on a limb here and assuming you have some pretty established beliefs which you are kind of projecting on me. I never argued for or against back pressure and never put forward any of those arguments you created and defeated for me - simply for the existence.

So I'm just going to kind of assume you have some very strong feelings I am not interested in plumbing the depths of and pretend this never happened.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:29 am

Ah, a troll. Excellent. There's no point trying to educate you further.



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PunkScout
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:55 am

Yes, very trollish for politely backing away when replied to with "You're wrong" and then a paragraph long straw man argument against my imagined position. I'm such a troublemaker.

You have a good one now.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:17 am

Looks like there may be a pattern of GT famboize joining up. Oh well, had to happen.

What do you call yourself on the advertising portal?
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anguscameron1966
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:20 am

I have tried to resist F it ….. haha....

There is no such thing as back pressure!. Nothing is pushing backward unless the other end of the exhaust is going to a pressurised vessel or another planet where the atmospheric pressure is greater!

In the case of a variable flowrate such as an engine producing waste gases the external static pressure offered by the pipe will increase with flowrate.

Pressure drop measured from inlet and outlet is a function of the pipe configuration, so to alter the pressure drop you might change the pipe size or add/remove resistance in the form of orifices or bends/u bends.

If interested please see Link




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Grisonut
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:10 pm

This fun... Where's the pop corn?
Imma gonna ditch bettle map and get a power commander then!!! bounce
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Converted Duc
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:54 am

Grisonut wrote:
This fun... Where's the pop corn?
Imma gonna ditch bettle map and get a power commander then!!!  bounce
LOl I thought I was poking the bear hehe! Laughing
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:24 pm

Be careful what you wish for! Pokers in the past are now non-existent on this fine board. Just saying





(and a word of advice - If you want to really poke and get a good reaction, go to GuzziTech - there I said it - and espouse to your heart's content. My login now says "banned" - for what - having an opinion, apparently. oh and not paying to a now commercial site. I wonder why I am here...) - end of slight digression
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:44 pm

Grisonut wrote:
This fun... Where's the pop corn?
Imma gonna ditch bettle map and get a power commander then!!!  bounce


We are not amused.



Very Happy Razz Laughing




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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:48 pm

Very Regal Mark
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:00 pm

Why stop there? Fit a FatDuc and a Booster Plug too. Then you can get one of those 'Orgone Accumulators' or whatever they were called that Dick Johnson used to spruik that align all the molecules in your vehicle to make it go faster. Oh, and water injection and one of those forced aspiration devices that is basically a computer cooling fan that you stick over the air intake on the airbox!

The sky's the limit really! You could add enough extraneous munt that the poor bike exceeds its GVM and the wheels collapse! So much Win! Laughing Thumbs Up
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GreggF
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:53 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Why stop there? Fit a FatDuc and a Booster Plug too. Then you can get one of those 'Orgone Accumulators' or whatever they were called that Dick Johnson used to spruik that align all the molecules in your vehicle to make it go faster. [smiley][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [smiley][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Pete, methinks it was Peter Brock and a Crystal Polarizer, Dick Johnson's secret weapon was more like a 6 pack of XXXX behind the front seat.

Sent from Topic'it App
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:18 pm

You're probably right. I don't tend to have perfect recall for snake oil devices spruiked by spivs and carnival barkers!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Very Happy
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il Postino
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:36 pm

algebr wrote:
I have a 2017 GRiSO SE with about 500 miles on it.

I read about the reflash offered, is the primarily motivation people are doing it is for a smoother low RPM responsiveness?  Are there any other benefits? Anyone got better fuel mileage out of it? I'm getting 17MPG in San Francisco driving, which is very low.

Is it safe to do under 1,000 miles?

Thanks

I am across the Bay from you and have a '14 SE that I remapped at around 1,300 miles. I read the excellent how-to guides on this site (remap, valve adjust, TB balance), and had them open on the laptop as a reference while I connected the LoneLec cables, paged through the GuzziDiag steps, broke out my feeler gauges, etc. At the end of the process, there was also a HUGE amount of satisfaction in doing it all myself coupled with a feeling of peace-of-mind knowing that the Guzzisti on this site were only a posting away to offer support or talk me through a difficulty, if I had encountered one.

I used one of Beetle's custom maps for the titanium Arrow exhaust which I bolted on at the same time and came away with a radically transformed bike that weighed around 25-30 lbs less! Gone is the very abrupt low speed throttle behavior, and I can honestly ride corners on just throttle alone now.

I haven't measured my new fuel consumption, but I can make it through a week of my short commute without having to stop for gas, which wasn't the case beforehand.

To the guy in Texas with the other 2014 and to you with your 2017--- get this remap done and you will fall in love with your bike all over again!cheers
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:17 pm

beetle wrote:
Grisonut wrote:
This fun... Where's the pop corn?
Imma gonna ditch bettle map and get a power commander then!!!  bounce


We are not amused.



Very Happy Razz Laughing





I sorry...
Was gonna get the GT-R right side exhaust thingy as well!
Izzat better? Very Happy
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algebr
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:10 pm

il Postino wrote:
algebr wrote:
I have a 2017 GRiSO SE with about 500 miles on it.

I read about the reflash offered, is the primarily motivation people are doing it is for a smoother low RPM responsiveness?  Are there any other benefits? Anyone got better fuel mileage out of it? I'm getting 17MPG in San Francisco driving, which is very low.

Is it safe to do under 1,000 miles?

Thanks

I am across the Bay from you and have a '14 SE that I remapped at around 1,300 miles. I read the excellent how-to guides on this site (remap, valve adjust, TB balance), and had them open on the laptop as a reference while I connected the LoneLec cables, paged through the GuzziDiag steps, broke out my feeler gauges, etc. At the end of the process, there was also a HUGE amount of satisfaction in doing it all myself coupled with a feeling of peace-of-mind knowing that the Guzzisti on this site were only a posting away to offer support or talk me through a difficulty, if I had encountered one.

I used one of Beetle's custom maps for the titanium Arrow exhaust which I bolted on at the same time and came away with a radically transformed bike that weighed around 25-30 lbs less! Gone is the very abrupt low speed throttle behavior, and I can honestly ride corners on just throttle alone now.

I haven't measured my new fuel consumption, but I can make it through a week of my short commute without having to stop for gas, which wasn't the case beforehand.

To the guy in Texas with the other 2014 and to you with your 2017--- get this remap done and you will fall in love with your bike all over again!cheers


Wow! I am really happy to hear that. Really looking forward to doing this reflash after my first service as well.

Don't know how anyone getting 40-50MPG on highway, I went from San Francisco to Palo Alto and was getting like 25MPG. On my 2002 BMW 1150R (Which I sold for this bike), the same MPG would have been at least 45.

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PunkScout
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:37 pm

il Postino wrote:


To the guy in Texas with the other 2014 and to you with your 2017--- get this remap done and you will fall in love with your bike all over again!cheers

It's definitely on my list.  Basically I'm waiting on a cable.  When that thing finally turns up (how long does it take to mail something from the UK anyway?) I'm going to pop down to the shop and do a  valve adjustment TB sync and  then it's game on.
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Diablo Loco
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:58 pm

Friday night at about 2?am I typed a reply to this thread that was laced with Herradura and Diplomatico.

Something along the lines of fuggin kahrns.

Woke up with hazy memory of unleashing on the interwebs but couldn't find anything to delete.

So this thread was real. Backpressure and power commanders. I need drink!
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Bulldog9
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:35 pm

MrGPz wrote:
Anyway, back to the subject,
I talked to my dealer about loading the map during the warranty period, and he said "who's going to know?"
So, I put beetle's map in, and put on an arrow exhaust.

Around town, roundabouts etc, it is now smooth without the on/off switch.
Mileage shows up as 7lt/100km around town, 6lt/100km on the road, need to take into account that I have reset my speedo to show true speed (checked via GPS) and therefore odometer reading is less.
otherwise I get 190-220kms til the fuel light comes on.

The dealer will know immediately......... If they hook it up to their computer. In the words of Micah at MI, "let's hope Piaggio doesn't ask to see the map data' All I had done at the time was reload a copy of the factory map in the hopes that there was something corrupted in my map. Ended up a totally unrelated issue, but if the 'warranty' (haha joke) required a look I would hae been screwed, though according to Micah, I would have been anyway.... lol

Back on topic, to the OP 17MPG is either the result of bad calculation or a serious malfunction unless you sit and idle through a tank of gas. IMO, a Beetle Map will NOT improve your mileage as it is no where as lean as the factory epa weenie satisfyer....... I'd look to the Plugs/Gap, Valve adjustments, TB balance and mechanical setup for your solution.

If you are sitting and idling and riding such short distances, why not just walk, or bicycle, why abuse your motorcycle sitting in traffic? Better for you, the environment (afterall you live in leftie town) and your bike! If you really want to know if there is a problem with your bike, go for a ride, and ride normally...... A Beetle map WILL improve performance and rideability a=over the spectrum, but NOT solve your mileage issues. That is either mechanical or user in origin.
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Bulldog9
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PostSubject: Re: When safe to reflash?    Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:39 pm

Oz1200Guzzi wrote:
(and a word of advice - If you want to really poke and get a good reaction, go to GuzziTech - there I said it - and espouse to your heart's content. My login now says "banned" - for what - having an opinion, apparently. oh and not paying to a now commercial site. I wonder why I am here...) - end of slight digression

I just think good Beetle thoughts and the Guzzitech Nazi's attack...................... such sad little people.... ;-) (with big wallets and ego's)
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