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 Clutch judder

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davem
Nobleswood
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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:09 pm

First the disclaimer; this isn't a whine or a affraid that the bike is coming apart !

Rather that I, Grasshopper, am asking for knowledge from those who know more about this. The weather's turning crappy & I will be spending more time cleaning, tinkering & planing my next farkle with GRiSO than riding for a while.

The bike is a 2013 1200 8V, so the single plate clutch.

After the bike has sat overnight, starting off down the drive at 5mph,  the clutch judders which means I end up feathering the clutch. The engine isn't lugging or lunging. After about 2 miles this smooths out.

This is different to the 'chatter' of the gearbox with the clutch out but in neutral. Is it to do with the low revs of the engine cos the bike's cold ?

In the Spring when I'll set the valves & re-balance the TB's I might answer my own question but for now I'm curious.
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davem
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:23 am

Common fault according to this month's Bike magazine, they claim it is nothing to worry about. I'm sure the experts here will have a better idea.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:10 am

Interesting. I was alerted to the issue by a link to it on another forum. I have never, in 10 years of dealing with 8V's ever experienced this 'Judder'. That isn't to say it isn't a *Thing* but I have to ask whether it is clutch related or something else.

That article also discloses that the 'Expurts' they consulted were 'Specialists' in pre-2000 Guzzis'. In other words they found all this new-fangled stuff far too difficult. Ipso Facto they haven't a fucking clue what they are talking about!

Other faults they noted included a host of shit linked to simple poor tuning and ignorance! Fuck that noise. Another example of huge, boiling arse. So now we get given the V85! It will be a monumentally disappointing POS but it has been specifically designed to be almost impossible for the people who work on it to fuck up! That's the theory. My guess is that factory assembly and a de-skilled workforce will soon shatter that bubble and it will still be a dissapointing piece of shit.

Carry on.

Pete
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BBB888
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:54 am

Just been searching on clutch issues.......mine makes a short sharp creaking noise just towards the end of the lever travel as I pull away when cold. You can feel a slight friction/vibration at the lever at the same time as the creaking sound which being at the end of the travel out to release the lever happens I guess just as the clutch fully engages. It continues for the first few gear changes, particularly at slow speeds with soft acceleration in traffic, until everything warms up. My instinct is that it must be a bearing, given the friction sensation and vibration that you can just feel through the lever. Seems to be OK once fully warm, although of course I am using the clutch more at the beginning of my journey in city traffic and then as it warms up I am getting onto more open roads and fewer gear changes.
Bike has been static for most of 2020/21 - only 49 miles between 2020 and 2021 annual MoT (UK annual roadworthy test) but now seeing more use as we are allowed out a bit.
Bike is 2014 and now just passed 9000 miles.
Anyone know what this might be?
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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:54 am

The website alerted me to a post here so I thought I’d add to my query.

Normally when I get a new , to me, machine, I’ll change the fluids just to have a baseline to work from. Apparently because of the torn sump gasket problem that was the first issue to be dealt with I spaced changing the gearbox oil Shocked ┬áThis I realised when I went to change the oil after the scheduled miles.

The juddering I experienced had diminished but was still there on occasions but I recognized the issue & didn’t worry about it. I found that the gearbox drain plug had a fair bit of sludge on it & now that there is fresh clean oil in the gearbox the juddering has gone.

About the clutch creaking, better mechanics will be along to advise but I’ve gone to bleeding the clutch as often as I do the brakes. The brakes for safety & the clutch cos the fluid gets black so quickly & that can’t be good.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:00 pm

The 'Groan' is quite common but not universal. Oddly it tends to afflict Stelvios more than Grisos. No idea why.

If your bike was a 2012 to early '13 I'd be a bit more concerned as there was a bad batch of friction plates around then. Most of them were installed in Stelvios but having just changed the clutch on my bike which has a 2012 motive unit I found it's friction plate shock absorption springs well on the way to dropping out so obviously a few of these duff plates slipped into other models!

The noise is not unusual. If it starts to get worse or the bike begins to Judder appreciably on take off it's probably worth investigating further.
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BBB888
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:48 pm

Thanks. I’ve been using in London this week and notice the clutch engagement is very clunky. Not something I’ve noticed before but probably as always been flowing roads rather than stop start in traffic. The groan feels like a bearing only because alongside the groan I can feel a vibration/friction as I release the lever. Hasn’t been serviced since pre Covid in summer 2019, and hasn’t had much use but I guess needs some fettling.
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kiwi dave
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:03 pm

I experienced similar symptoms on a 1200 Sport a few years ago. Turned out to be the bushes in the reaction rod that connects between the CARC and the swinging arm pivot. Replaced both bushes, and the problem went away.
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BBB888
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:40 am

Thanks. Something else to check out.
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guzzichris
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:01 am

Just something I discovered, when checking the reaction arm bush I found that you had to release the end connected to the CARC box to give the arm a good shake. The bush at the swingarm end on my 1100 had disintegrated but you couldn't tell if you just tried to twist the arm whilst bolted both ends. The clunk that I'd experienced on clutch release magically disappeared after fitting a new bush.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:05 am

GU05638130 Is the part # for the spherical bearing. They aren't costly but they're a pain to install.
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BBB888
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:51 am

Thanks all.
So I am listing the possible requirements;
1. Bush at swingarm end of CARC
2. Bushes in reaction rod connecting CARC to swingarm pivot.
3. GU05638130 spherical bearing
4. Friction plate shock absorber springs
5. Change gearbox oil.
6. Change clutch fluid

Or a combination of several of the above! I think this is going to be a step beyond my mechanical skills so is anyone able to recommend a Guzzi workshop? Last service was at Twiggers here in Loughborough but it seems they have closed down. Ideally somewhere in the South of England (between London and Swindon), but will travel to get it done right.
My morning commute in traffic confirms the clutch drive system seems very clunky at low revs, and with the clutch 'bark' as I release lever it makes me focus on the clutch and then very aware of all the clunks! All because my vespa is off the road for 10 days! Looks like after settling the Vespa bill I will have another for the GRiSO!
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:22 am

1,2,and 3 are all variations on the same theme.
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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:38 am

4 is the big issue. The rest are all do-able, cheapish & would be worth doing to make such 4 is the problem
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:28 am

What part of:

If your bike was a 2012 to early '13 I'd be a bit more concerned as there was a bad batch of friction plates around then. Most of them were installed in Stelvios but having just changed the clutch on my bike which has a 2012 motive unit I found it's friction plate shock absorption springs well on the way to dropping out so obviously a few of these duff plates slipped into other models!

Is difficult to understand? What is the build date? If it's a MY 12 it may have an issue but as I said most of the bad plates went in Stelvios. The single platers do groan when cold. It's not the end of the world. Just keep an ear on it and if it gets appreciably worse revisit it.

Why do people always assume their bikes are going to break? How many miles on it? Next to none I'd guess as it's in the UK. Ride more. Worry less.
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BBB888
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:13 am

Not assuming it’s going to break. Just like my machines to purr and the clutch noises are recent developments so my view is need attention. Mileage currently 9053. Reg March 2014. No idea of build date. She’s black and silver SE which I think only released in early 2014. Rather do some preventative and enjoy smoother ride than risk bigger problem. Ridden enough Italian bikes in 40plus years to know when something doesn’t feel or sound right.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:24 am

OK, fling a new clutch in it Part# 2A000107. €650+VAT. Eight to ten hours to install. Gives you a chance to do the swingarm bearings and shock linkage while you're at it.
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BBB888
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:32 am

Think I'll investigate further first. I don't think its the entire clutch (but what do I know?), nothing slipping, but I am expecting a bearing or bush to be responsible for the 'bark' and grinding sensation at the lever at end of lever travel as clutch engages, and possibly other items in the CARC/Drive system accounting for the clunking. May even just need some fine tuning/adjustment. Ill report back in due course.
Bearings were done at first service after I bought the bike (2nd hand with 1000 miles) and the shock linkage done when I got the Wilbers fitted.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:58 pm

Grinding sensation bad! Time to start taking stuff apart.
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BBB888
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:12 pm

It’s a loose torque arm at the gearbox end. Rattling around on the rubber bush. Tightened up and all seems well. Thankfully easy and no expense! It’s the simple things………..sometimes!

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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch judder   Clutch judder Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:53 pm

cheers
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