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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio
Oz1200Guzzi

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Join date : 2014-03-13
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PostSubject: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:50 pm

Spent a little while this morning, cleaning up and sorting all the bits and bobs that go onto the heads - you know, valves and the shit that makes them all hang together.

Discovered that the four main retaining nuts were all installed up side down on the Left Hand cylinder; Funny, on the R/H side they were all installed correctly.

How do I know this?

Well, properly manufactured nuts have a flat side and the opposite side usually has some imprint marking on it (not quite as flat) - the markings are the outside facing side, whereas the flat side mates with the washer and is the load bearing side. I didn't always know this, I listened when proper mechanical engineers were having a discussion one day. I didn't let on I didn't know, but I certainly do now.

So it seems Luigi has differing standards depending which side of the bike they are working on - the guy on the left side has put all his nuts on the wrong way, the guy on the right got it right - and you were worried about whether or not they had access to the grease pot when your bike was assembled! Fear the nuts done up wrong! Fear it greatly!
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GuzziSteve
Fra Cristoforo
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GuzziSteve

Posts : 353
Join date : 2016-04-14

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:59 am

Better call the line boss and tell them to pick up the pace Tony. A prime example, they don't care, the owner has warranty. Let someone else fix it, it's outta here.
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio
Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:36 pm

It would be wasting my breath Steve and would probably be lost in translation. It's OK i know the right way up...
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio
Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:04 am

Had a closer look at the rocker covers this afternoon. Seems these are silver/grey in colour and look to be plated - under the plated (paint?) there is black betwixt the paint and the aluminium - seems like a coating to make the plating stick - assume electro-plating here.

Any thoughts?

Going to be a right royal bastard to get off if that's the case.

Inform me, edumecate me.

These are the rocker covers off a 1100 GRiSO or a 1200 Sport 2V dunger...
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tvboy
Biondino
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tvboy

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:08 am

Hi Oz1200Guzzi,
Someone smarter than me will probably chime in but it's my understanding the valve covers (aluminum) need to have an etching primer applied before the final color coating is sprayed on. I usually see etching primer in a green tint but I've heard of black too. I don't know what process M-G actually used but my 2011 valve covers are original and the silver paint is solid with no flaking or discoloration. Hope this helps.

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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Thu May 21, 2020 11:31 pm

Good news, rings are in Australia and I should see them next week. Then the rebuild can continue.
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sideshowbob
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sideshowbob

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Fri May 22, 2020 5:56 pm

That's great news Tony!
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Sun May 24, 2020 11:24 pm

Rings have arrived! Will be a few days before I get to the old girl and I will be in no rush...
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Pete Roper
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Pete Roper

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Sun May 24, 2020 11:36 pm

And be careful with those rings! They're like rocking horse shit apparently!
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio
Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Mon May 25, 2020 1:43 am

yep unnerstand Pete
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Pete Roper
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Pete Roper

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Mon May 25, 2020 2:53 am

You know the put the piston in the barrel and then stick the gudgeon pin in trick don't you?
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Mon May 25, 2020 4:26 pm

yep, thanks Pete.
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Thu May 28, 2020 6:46 pm

Got both pistons and barrels in this morning. What a PITA getting the gudgeon pin retaining clips in - would be easier if the engine was on the bench! Now for some heads to be installed. And ALL the other little bits.
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voulga77
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Fri May 29, 2020 4:55 am

Hope you make it spin again soon
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Oz1200Guzzi
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Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Fri May 29, 2020 8:20 pm

Interesting fact:
the new rings and the old rings have exactly the same measurements. The piston diameter and the bore diameter are as per specs.

Mayhaps I have a spare set of rings after all - certainly can't hurt. Head will get another (more thorough) looking at. Focus will be seats which though looking quite nice, will get some extra attention.
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Oz1200Guzzi
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Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:44 pm

Youngest son (he is a plant mechanic workshop manager) came over and looked at my heads today, we pulled a valve and he said the valve face is all pitted, the seat looked good. They all looked good to me and didn't leak when I pulled them out before.

They looked good to me, but I do need glasses for anything smaller than a football field. So suitably chastened, they will go off to the Engine shop in the next couple of days. Embarassed
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Oz1200Guzzi
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Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:36 pm

Lessons Learned:

This week I got to put in my heads to the local engine reconditioner. My gut feel was that the valve guides were worn and that K-Lining them might be the way to go.

Just got a call from them to say there is nothing wrong with the guides, it's simply the valves and seat mating surfaces that are the problem. Initially they thought the guides were worn, but no - going 2 thou (metric remember) oversize on the valve guides was impossible, so the wear is not worn but simply withing spec. Good to know. They also doubted K-lines would work due to the narrowness of the guide at the top, when the oil seal sits. Also good to know. If you have shot guides, gets some real ones - I think they might be cast iron?

The long and short of it (Pat are you listening?) is that after 140,000 km:
- The rings have not worn the new rings and old rings have exactly the same measurements using a set of unflat (read no digital readout) verniers, which gove accuracy to 0.02 mm;
- The pistons are as per specifications - a touch under 95 mm;
- the bores are spot on at 95.00 mm -  right on spec;
- the valve seat were in great condition and will get a light machine to ensure the mating faces are at 45 degrees +/- 2 degrees;
- valve mating surfaces are the problem, with a bit of pitting (well a lot according to my son, whose eyes are a bit better than mine) on the mating face;
- the heads themselves will be faced very, very slightly to get rid of some minor scratches (from handling);
- they suggest Hylomar on both sides of the head gaskets (all metallic, presumably some sort of steel or steel-like material);

All in all, pretty good for 13 years old and oft-flogged 2-valve ditch-pump dunger, that has seen (on many occasions) the safe rev limit met with gusto.

I should have the heads back by the end of the week, whence re-assembly will re-commence.

All she needed was a valve-grind in reality. Really not that bad, when you look down the retrospectoscope. So for other 2 valve 1100 or 1200 dungers, start planning on doing at least this when you get up there on miles/kilometres. Going to cost for o-rings (set of 4) for the head to barrel oil seals, some head gaskets, some base gaskets if you pull the barrels/pistons, a set of valve-guide oil seals (set of 4) and really only time. If you have the gear to do valve lapping, even better - if not your local engine reconditioner can assist.

Pat are you listening with your two pipes and all? And your occasional oil leak? You will be next and I've done all the hard work for you already, which will cost you BEER!

By the way, Mario at Thunderbikes has most if not all for such simple operations as this. However give Mr Roper-San a call first to see what he has in stock too (or he can get) - this is not a west-coast vs east-coast competition, just quicker from Bungendore than Western Australia in the current climate where borders are closed. Pete was a great practical guide in all of this as well and bent over backwards in the early diagnostics to assist. Thanks Pete.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:54 pm

K-lines work fine, believe me. Tony Mardell's bike I did at 180,000 (From memory?) needed K-lines in the exhausts, the inlets were fine. Although we did give his bike new valves my head shop said in a pinch they would of gone round again. Interesting as the V11's tend to be hard on guides. Nothing compares to a 'Big Valve' LeMans though. They are murder on valves.
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bahamazoo
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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:44 am

thanks for the write up Tony... all good to know indeed.
I still have a way to go before I pull heads off, Big Red only has 55 on her clock...

I have beer.

viva la ditch pump cheers cheers


and yes, my occasional leak still is, although it'll be happening quietly in the dark (insert sad face here)
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:28 pm

Heads ready to pick up - Hooray! $165 - dunno exactly what's been done apart from seat reco and valve lapping and possibly a light scrape over the mating surface. I guess I will find out in a few hours when I go and pick them up.
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:58 pm

Just picked up the heads - valves and seats are accurate to within 3 microns, you can't see that he said, no-one laps valves in anymore, he said. They look nice!
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:41 pm

No, if he's got a Serdi bench there is no need for any further work. Messing about with suction cups and grinding paste is, thank heavens, a thing of the past!
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:08 pm

Dunno what they've got Pete, but it "looks" good. I have to trust them on this - they do all the specialist stuff locally. Cam highly recommended by two contacts I know (could be related to one of them).
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:27 pm

Pete, head gaskets - to hylomar or not?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Top End Rebuild   Top End Rebuild Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:19 pm

Coppercote aerosol. Are they steel or kingerlite? If steel they don't need re-torquing.
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