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 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection

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hipower
Carlotto
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PostSubject: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:50 pm

I bought my 2010 8v GRiSO new from Pro Italia about a decade ago. Originally I wanted the pushrod engine and I wanted the bike in orange but the dealer had a demo on sale and the price was ok, so I bought it. I still like the bike but I don't ride it that much. It has a tad over 10k miles. I lived in the Riverside area of Southern California and now I'm in Southern Arizona. The weather is always on the hot side, but usually nice. Almost never cold. 8 or 9 months ago I discovered the flat tappet/cam problem on the 8v engines and I knew I may have a problem but the bike was in storage waiting for me to move into a house where I could take the cams out for a look. I finally took the left cam out and I may not have been so worried.

This is my first post and thread so I'm trying to figure out how to upload pics.
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hipower
Carlotto
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hipower

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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:54 pm

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hipower
Carlotto
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hipower

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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:56 pm

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hipower
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:07 pm

there is a tiny spot on the right (in the pic) lifter. I think that's the exhaust. A roller kit is going to run well over a grand. I've only used 20w50 motorcycle oil. Either Redline or Mobil 1 V-twin. Right now I think I have 2 quarts of Redline and the rest I topped off with Castrol 4t. I've always used good oil.

I'm not convinced I need to spend the cash on a roller kit. Maybe in a few years I do but right now I can put the bike together and not worry about it.

I'd like to thank Pete for his video of removing the cam.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:16 pm


Even 1 speck of DLC missing is a failure.



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hipower
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:17 pm

I know MG specs 20w60 oil but I've never been able to find it on the shelf. Every air-cooled vehicle I've owned (Porsche 911, 914, VW, BMW airhead) I've used 20w50.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:20 pm

Sorry my friend, it's already on its way. There is no such thing as 'Acceptable' wear and as you can see you're already loosing the coating off one tappet, the others won't be far behind.

If you rollerise now you'll likely be fine. The longer you leave it the greater the risk that won't be the case.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:20 pm


Tappet failure will occur regardless of the type of oil used. It's not a lubrication issue. The DLC coating on the tappets is the problem.



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hipower
Carlotto
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:42 pm

Rats.

I got the money but its irritating me to all hell that Motoguzzi let a problem like this pass thru their development process. I think they are the oldest motorcycle manufacturer still in business today. My initial desire of buying the pushrod engine would have avoided this problem.

And my AC on my house just crapped out. Its something like 18 years old and I've been throwing money down the rathole with bandaids. I think its time for a new unit and that's going to run about $7k.

when it rains it pours?
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:23 pm


GuzziSteve says Piaggio North America is still honouring the Roller Kit upgrade process. If you have a good relationship with your dealer, you may still be able to get a kit for free.



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hipower
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:33 pm

I guess I can ask. They can only say no. I've never taken the bike in for service. I've always done my own oil changes. The only problem I've had with the bike, besides this lifter problem, was the oil light not illuminating after I shut the motor off. Its still a problem but its not going to leave me stranded out in the middle BFE.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:52 pm

The oil light not illuminating is not a problem. Unlike earlier machines the way it works with the CARC bikes is that the dash logic recognises if there is a problem and if there is then and only then will it illuminate the light. It, along with all the other lights should light up when the dash does it's sweep at key-on and then once the sweep is complete it should go off leaving on only the neutral light and, if deployed, the sidestand light.
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:28 pm

Think about where these micro-sized "DLC bits" go? Probably pass through the filter unimpeded... Now pump that into you big ends... Poof! Bang! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:26 pm

First thing would be to establish whether it's a 'C' kit bike or a 'B' kit bike. If it's a 'B' kit bike you can buy it cheaper from Europe than most official dealers in the USA. If it's a 'C' Kit bike you can still buy a 'B' kit and add the extra bits to make it into a 'C' kit but by that point it may not make a lot of difference in price. Last time I looked all three kits commanded the same price in the USA whereas in Europe, and I believe here, the costs vary although here they are all stupidly expensive!

A 'B' kit from TLM is currently $750US whereas a 'C' kit is $1,440US which is why I suggest people buy the 'B' kit and 'Extras' to make it into a 'C' kit.
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hipower
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:35 pm

I have two airheads that I've rebuilt the engines. A R50/5 and a R90S. The 90S still has the original cam and lifters. The cam was worn and the lifters had a couple pits. Small and not very numerous. The R50 was a bike-in-a-box. It was a friends project that he ran out of interest so he sold it to me. It was a rolling frame and 3 or 4 boxes of parts. The cam and a couple lifters were missing so I bought a core that came out of an r60/5. I used the cam and a few lifters, and eventually the heads and jugs, to rebuild the engine for the R50.

I had the rods checked, the journals of the crank polished and a shop in San Diego assembled the crank to the block with new bearings. I picked the best 4 lifters of what I had and built the motor. A carb was missing so I got one out of a bmw bone yard. A decade later the seats on the 500 cc heads wore out so I bought a piston kit from motoren-israel and made the bike a 600, after rejetting the carbs. The bike pinged so I lowered the compression ratio with the thickest cylinder shims I could find, and installed heavier springs on the advance weights.

the bike is a joy to ride and I don't worry about the jumble of used cam and lifters I got in it. Once in a blue moon I'll have to pull the jugs off to replace a leaky pushrod seal and I'll take the lifters out for a look. They, and the lobes of the cam, always look serviceable.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:44 pm

The problem with the Guzzi Hi-Cam is not limited to one item. It's a combination of factors that lead to them destroying themselves but the actual starting point is I believe the valve springs. For some reason at some point they can't keep the tappet in contact with the cam lobe surface and the lifter leaves the face of the opening flank of the cam and crashes down on the nose circle. This hammering shatters and crazes the DLC coating which then lifts and gets wiped off by the rotating cam lobe.
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hipower
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:49 pm

My R90S had the similar rebuild. I was on a tighter budget 10 years ago so I cut corners. Original cam and lifters. Things are better now so when I restore the bike to its original Daytona orange colors I plan on getting a new (stock) cam and lifters along with a 2nd oversize Wossner pistons. I'm never going to sell either of these bikes so I don't care about resale.

These old bikes have modest horse power compared to new bikes like my GRiSO. Motoguzzi was trying to get more power without going to water cooling. Opening two valves and probably more lift resulted in higher pressure between the cam lobe and the lifter and this left them with having resort to coatings like the DLC on the lifters.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:27 pm

Two small valves are actually less massive than one large one and therefore require less spring pressure. It's one of the big gains in mechanical efficiency with four valve system. Also with the hi-cam design there is a lot less mass in the entire valvetrain to be moved. The DLC coating was first used when the original chilled cast iron tappets started to fail. It's not the 'Rubbing' and friction that causes the DLC to fail as it is extremely resistant to that if applied properly. What will kill it very quickly is shock loadings from hammering and the results of that can usually be clearly seen in the 'Blueing' and tempering marks on the nose circles of the cams of failed bikes. It happens to all of them, believe me, we've done well over 200 now. In fact I had another three 'B' kits arrive today and am expecting another 'A' kit by the end of the week. They don't hang around long. Evil or Very Mad Laughing
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hipower
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:49 pm

maybe guzzi should have used hydraulic lifters
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:07 pm

They tried that with the Cali 1100 in 2002/3. It took three recalls to get that right! Laughing
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hipower
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:29 am

it looks like I need a C kit. No o ring groove on the valve cover and no punch marks on the head
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:13 pm

Yup. Now AF1 and therefore I presume most other Guzzi shops want $1,226 for either an A,B or C kit.

As I've explained if you go off shore you'll be able to find a 'B' kit much cheaper and just add the extra bits required to turn it into a 'C' kit. The 'C' kit contains two of each of the thicknesses of head gasket so you get six in total of which four are not required. The vast majority of engines take the middle thickness of gasket so you can either take a punt and just order them or wait until the heads come off before ordering but apart from that you need four shims, four valve guide oil seals, two inlet manifold gaskets and two exhaust manifold gaskets on top of the 'B' kit. Even with freight I'd guess it would be a $300 saving over the cost from a US dealer.
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hipower
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:49 pm

I ordered the C kit from Pro Italia. The local shop didn't seem to want to help me all that much. Hopefully the Italians are at work and not taking the year off for the virus. I should get the kit in a couple weeks (hopefully) and put the bike back together where it will probably sit for a few more months.

I think it was 105 today. New AC unit is going in tomorrow. That's about $8k for the house and bike.
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KeithEMason
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:03 pm

hipower wrote:
I ordered the C kit from Pro Italia. The local shop didn't seem to want to help me all that much. Hopefully the Italians are at work and not taking the year off for the virus. I should get the kit in a couple weeks (hopefully) and put the bike back together where it will probably sit for a few more months.

I think it was 105 today. New AC unit is going in tomorrow. That's about $8k for the house and bike.

Did Pro Italia let you know if the kits are in stock?
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hipower
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: 2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection   2010 GRiSO 8v lifter inspection Icon_minitime1Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:58 pm

They told me the kits had to come in from Italy so there will be a wait.
I could have rode the bike for a couple more years with the original lifters but I had one side apart already so I may as well do the fix now. Maybe I'll get a lower footpeg kit. A new seat would be nice too. Adding an inch to the seat and lower pegs would be a significant improvement.
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