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 Possible Oil Sensor

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scagliog
Tanabuso
Tanabuso
scagliog

Posts : 70
Join date : 2018-10-20

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:46 pm

I tried resetting a few times...yes the gear indicator is disconnected. there are no errors from the diagnostic but still a 352 coil too high from guzzi diag...
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Kiwi_Roy
Sfregiato
Sfregiato
Kiwi_Roy

Posts : 471
Join date : 2017-11-09

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:47 pm

That's good,
Your electricians licence is in the mail.

lcjohnny likes this post

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scagliog
Tanabuso
Tanabuso
scagliog

Posts : 70
Join date : 2018-10-20

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:42 pm

Well I am not out of the woods yet.

The right Coil is throwing a P0352 -to high AND mostly the right cylinder is not firing Sad
Could I have damaged the coil ???

The bike starts and runs on the left cylinder only.

Now when I measure between the positive to the Coil (s) and the blue ground attached outside the coil I see a short and no voltage with both key on or key off... Yet the left cylinder coil is working fine...

Next I am going to disconnect the tap to the right coil for the gear indicator...and undo all that work...

Thanks,
Giuseppe
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Pete Roper
GRiSO Capo
GRiSO Capo
Pete Roper

Posts : 8093
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Age : 64

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:11 pm

Have you checked the plug caps yet?
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scagliog
Tanabuso
Tanabuso
scagliog

Posts : 70
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:33 pm

Hello,
I did check the spark plug and looked fine .
So I tested the signal wire to the coil.
On the right Coil labeled 44 on the wiring diagram( bad ):
The Blue/Green terminal-2 that goes to the ECU terminal 10 I read :1.7V key off and 70mV key on.

On the left Coil labeled 45 on the wiring diagram ( good ):
The Orange/Black terminal-2 that goes to the ECU terminal 38 I read: 1.7V key off and 2.7V key on.

Not sure what to do next... swap the coils???

Thank you!

Giuseppe





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Pete Roper
GRiSO Capo
GRiSO Capo
Pete Roper

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:11 pm

Yes, try that but it's not the plugs you need to check. It's the plug caps.

As I said take the covers off and, preferably in the dark, start the engine and see if you can see or hear the spark snapping to earth at the rocker cover or plug tube. You can also trigger the spark with Guzzidiag but I find it more reliable a test to do it with the engine running.
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scagliog
Tanabuso
Tanabuso
scagliog

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:49 pm

Yes I did that test-- I meant the caps not the spark plugs. I did the test in the dark and I did not see anything...
Will try with guzzi diag tomorrow as well ..

Cheers,
Giuseppe
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scagliog
Tanabuso
Tanabuso
scagliog

Posts : 70
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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:15 am

Well I executed the service manual troubleshooting for P0352 to positive:
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I used the GuzziDiag Actor "Ignition R", probing Connector-2. I do not see 0V, but 90mV at first, then about 70mV  -- is that considered 0 volt???

The fault went also to P0352 to negative for a few minutes.... Well the coil seems to be $150 !!
GU30716500 .. but I was told was a generic one that should cost no more than $40...
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio
Oz1200Guzzi

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Age : 66

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:59 am

There are a number of generic manufacturers of coils, used by Piaggio. Do some cross-referencing, many Euro vehicles have the same coils in use. Dirt cheap.

When you find it but three, so you will have 2 spares for the future.
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scagliog
Tanabuso
Tanabuso
scagliog

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:03 pm

Hello,

Measured the 2 Coils and I get:

Suspected Bad Right Coil:
Primary + -, 0.2 Ohms
Secondary + to HT 3273 Ohms

Good Left Coil:
Primary + -, 0.5 Ohms
Secondary + to HT 3269 Ohms

Now, when I swapped the coils, bike did not quite run on the left Cylinder only, kind of started but sputtered and did not stay on.
GuzziDiag now detected P0351 -- Left coil to positive (as expected ) but also still P0352 Right coil to positive!

When the coils were put back to original cylinders I got back to the P0352 only code as expected, and the bike started at 1 Left cyl.

I am leaning to a new Coil.... I hope that is it!

Giuseppe




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Kiwi_Roy
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Kiwi_Roy

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:06 am

Thats a pretty significant difference in the coil primaries, are you measuring right at the coil terminals or are you including some wiring?

You could also check the leads by measuring right from the plug cap to chassis, that should be the same on both sides.
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scagliog
Tanabuso
Tanabuso
scagliog

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:39 am

Hi Roy,

I measured right at the coil terminals after I pulled them. I measured 3 times to make sure and I always got the same values ..

Ok thank you so much. Working on sourcing a new coil...there are a few on ebay used but they dont look very good..

Giuseppe
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GuzziSteve
Fra Cristoforo
Fra Cristoforo
GuzziSteve

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:52 am

Check with Pinwall cycle, the usually have used.

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scagliog
Tanabuso
Tanabuso
scagliog

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:00 am

Thank you so much. They had 2 decent looking BAE 850 AK... for $36... small investment...

Giuseppe
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Kiwi_Roy
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Kiwi_Roy

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:37 pm

Sometimes when you are taking measurements like that switch over the leads, if it reads differently that indicates there is some sort of corrosion setting up a corrosion cell which causes an offset Voltage.
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motoguzznix
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio
motoguzznix

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:37 pm

Hi

Millions of Fiat Puntos, Cinquecentoos an many others equiped with there Fire engine use coils like this. They are cheap - 20 to 50 Euros here in Europe. Not sure if these cars are common overseas.
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scagliog
Tanabuso
Tanabuso
scagliog

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:51 pm

Hello!

I do not believe the Fire engine was ever imported to the US in any cars...

I sourced 2 used coils... we I should get by early next week... I just hope that it is just the coil, since when I swapped them, I did not get the 'right' cylinder to start and work properly as I was expecting.. hopefully was something else..

Cheers,
Giuseppe
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio
Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:00 pm

I had similar on my 2V Sport earlier in the year. Swapped coils from R to L and back again. Purchased a new coil (the only one in Australia) and 2 second hand coils from a Bellagio. Problems were not solved (all the new and old coils measured correctly and were within specification).

Turned out to be something else after replacing (sometimes borrowed, sometime bought):
- TPS
- Phase sensor
- Coils
- Plug leads
- Plugs
- Plug caps
- Rings
- Base Gaskets
- Head Gaskets

Problem still persisted and it turned out to be the valve/seat mating surfaces in the heads. Everything else was still in spec after 140,000 km, including the rings.

Not saying this is your issue Giuseppe, however sometimes the root cause is masked by other symptoms. One of your coils is beyond spec. The result of this might be that the plug on that side is now fouled due to not firing correctly. I would recommend a new set of plugs to make sure that is good for when you reassemble. There may still be an issue with a plug cap or lead from the dodgy coil - if you have spares of these, it's worth a check
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scagliog
Tanabuso
Tanabuso
scagliog

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:50 pm

Hi Tony!

Thank you so much. I caused all the problems myself with a short!

I grounded or shorted (well a pinch to the a cable did) the Ground to the Right Coil sent by the ECU -- which I had tapped to a gear indicator, with either the speed sensor signal or the real ground...

Now that possibly damaged at least 1 coil (blew the coil fuses).. but I am trying to figure what else it might have blown... like the things you listed above!

--Giuseppe
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scagliog
Tanabuso
Tanabuso
scagliog

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Oil Sensor   Possible Oil Sensor - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:51 pm

Gentlemen, problem solved!  cheers

Changed the coil that the ECU was detecting High Voltage, and also changed both plugs ( they do have 10K miles...) and the beast started right up, no codes, running smooth -- so nice to hear her alive and healthy again!

I would like to say thank you to everybody.

GuzziSteve, I own you a 12 beers pack at least for pointing me to pinwall. Amazing, I got 2 coils which are in perfect specs with my old one and look new for just $35 -- including shipping!!! The new alternative was $150 for one!!! Even ebay had only bad looking ones for $$$

Tony, Pete, Roy -- thank you as well for pointing me to the failure. I feel I have to give something back to this forum... here's some data that somebody can use to troubleshoot a bad coil.
Pete, THANK YOU, for telling me how to remove the plug cap! I was probably going to pull hard from the top. Super easy with a long flat screw driver from the appropriate hole!!

0. Always go to the GrisoGetto forum FIRST!!!!

1. Trust the ECU and the Service Manual Code troubleshooting -- it was pointing to the Right coil being bad!

2. The 3 Good coils all have Primary resistance across the + and - of exactly 0.6 ohms at about 60 F.
   The bad coil has 0.2 ohms!
  Secondary resistance is 3145 and 3160 on the 'good coils' and 3270 on the BAD.

3. The bad coil seems to have taken with him the plug as well!

4. The problem started because I messed up!  A bad rigging job that made the cable to the gear indicator loose ... which end up in the steering column, shorting the negative from the ECU with the speed sensor signal and chassis. Causing in order a series of failures:
 a. SERVICE warning on and off for a month or so
 b. Oil pressure Sensor warning on the dash codes
 c. Right Coil failure along with right spark plug failure -- right cylinder off
 d. Coils Fuse Blown -- both cylinders off!!!
 e. TOW HOME

Also, as Roy pointed out initially, I need to put a fuse or a resistor to my 'additional features' like the gear indicator! You don't want a gear indicator take down your bike and have to call a tow truck ( I had it covered with insurance but still....)

Below my old plugs -- I think they look good for 10K miles -- and the extra coil.

Now, if somebody needs:

1. Original GRiSO exhaust ( only 500 miles on it )
2. A Coil ..  BAE 850 AK  
3. GRiSO Original rear suspension ( about 5000 miles on it )

Let me know !

Cheers,
Giuseppe


Giuseppe

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