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GR1064
Bison
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Bison
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Bison


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Join date : 2022-06-01

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PostSubject: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:51 am

Hi folks,
I've updated my signature, but if I haven't done it properly then my bike is (cheating a little, not a GRiSO) a 2007 Norge.
Some who look at other forums may have seen my cry for help before, but I thought I would ask in the GRiSO Brotherhood as I'm about to go nuts with the fault on this bike.
Short story, one morning, no starter button action, after much faffing around I hot wired the button, this proceeded to screw up the ECU. I fit a Ducati 1098 ECU, 5AM, but a different hardware number, YES!, starter button works, unfortunately the TPS constantly resets itself making the bike unrideable. I then send the Guzzi ECU to a well known ECU repair company in The Netherlands, it was indeed faulty, I got it back today, fitted it, and guess what, no starter button function, HA!
Is Wits End a place?, cos I'm heading there!. I've emailed the ECU company to ask what the fault would have affected.
Those of you who have read my previous posts will know what has been done.
I fitted the Guzzi ECU before sending it away, just to check, no starter button, refitted the Ducati one, starts fine
The only thing done today was change the ECU, I started the bike before removing the Ducati 5AM, no problem starting, fitted the repaired original, no start button function, back to square one, and very considerably lighter in the pocket department.
I am thinking of taking a wire from the battery to a button on the dash, then down to the starter solenoid, but I've already screwed the ECU once (maybe), not by doing this,but by bypassing the ecu from the switch to the starter relay, it worked, but not for long. but I'm loath to try something again, although I can't see why it would screw the ecu, it's the same as hot-wiring to the solenoid, which works every time. A wire from the battery pos to the solenoid and away she goes. The old problem is there is no voltage drop on one side of the pull in coil on the starter relay, and it's the ECU that tells it to do that, it can't be another component, the Ducati ECU works the button, but the Guzzi one doesn't. But I guess the Ducati ECU might earth one side of the relay through a different pin?.
Replaced and repaired the ECU, all relays, cam sensor, battery, tilt switch, clutch switch, side stand switch, neutral switch, all earths/grounds spotless startus interuptus has been done, continuity from ECU plug to relay, starter, common earths between starter button/clutch switch/tilt switch, ECU pins and plug cleaned to spotless levels, all fuses replaced and much more, all safety components, clutch switch, side stand, neutral switch, tilt switch either bridged or disconnected depending whether normally open or closed. No dash lights going out, no switch wiggling or turning handlebars from side to side, makes no difference, starter switch functions fine when the plug is disconnected and continuity checked.
I'm stuck, little left to try, any (polite) suggestions?
Alan.
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GR1064
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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:16 am

I found a similar problem to yours on another forum.

link


Are you getting an ECU 44 fault code?

If so then maybe it’s the ground wire from the ECU connector, as stated on the other forum.

Brian
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:47 am

OK I am reading your post late at beer night

So apologies for any falure to read wot-you-said albino

It starts with the Ducati ECU and runs (not well)?
If so it needs a Guzzi map.

Use Guzzi Diag save the map off your old Guzzi ECU and write it into your replacement
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Bison
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Bison


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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Sat Jul 09, 2022 3:32 pm

Hi Folks,
Thanks for the replies.
No fault codes at all, even before, when the ECU was "faulty".
I have Guzzi Diag, and I have downloaded the most recent map from a well known person on this and other Guzzi forums, he has been very helpful. The map was downloaded onto the Ducati ECU, and the original Guzzi ECU had the earlier map already downloaded when I got the bike. I should say I did about 4000 miles over the winter before this problem occurred. I also found that post about the ecu ground, so cleaned it until it was sparkling, I also ran a separate ground from the ecu to the battery negative and the frame, no joy.
Thanks again.
Alan.
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Bison
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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Sat Jul 09, 2022 3:43 pm

To give more info. With the Ducati ECU fitted, and the latest Norge map down loaded, the starter button worked just fine, but the TPS would constantly reset itself, the TPS has been replaced with the original Magneti Morelli one, it did the same.
With the original Guzzi ECU fitted there is no starter button. the TPS seemed to be stable, but there was a cutting out problem when the throttle was closed, replacing the tilt sensor seemed to rectify this. No fault codes, and the dash remained lit up, rev counter working as well as no warning lights lit
I haven't attempted to start the engine since refitting the Guzzi ECU, but today I will. If a wire is taken from the battery directly to the solenoid it starts fine. That's why I'm thinking of rigging a start button on the dash, a wire from the battery to the button, then down to the solenoid, but I'm afraid that will screw with the ecu.
Hi Pete, just read your post. The Ducati ECU is indeed the HW610 number, which should work on the Guzzi, and did as read, but the TPS keeps resetting.
I'm pretty much at the end of this journey, the bike has been causing grief since March, I've spent hours and hours on it, and a lot of money on components. The time to make a decision is coming soon.
Alan.


Last edited by Bison on Sat Jul 09, 2022 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Sat Jul 09, 2022 3:44 pm

The ecu needs the same HW number I believe?
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Bison
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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:15 am

Hi Pete,
Yes, the number on the Ducati 5AM  is HW610, which I believe is the same as the Norge. I'll double check that when I remove the Norge ECU.....again!.
I'll fit the Ducati one again, because I replaced the TPS with an original Magneti Morelli one, PF1C, and haven't tried it with the Ducati 5AM, I'm not holding my breath here though, because the TPS problem when it occurred, I replaced the original TPS with a generic aftermarket one, however the exact same problem remained, but it costs nothing to try.
After that, well, I should receive some feedback from Carmo, the decision then is whether or not to buy an ECU on Ebay, thinking I could have two faulty ecu's causing different problems, but really I'm kind of clutching at straws. I'll wait until I hear from the ECU repair people.
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Bison
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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:28 am

Another question please?.
On the ECU there is a number, e.g. 5AM, then two letters, GE on the one I have, BS on the one on Ebay, any idea what these signify?, perhaps a batch number?
Thanks,
Alan.
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avgpetro
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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:28 am

Maybe you should use the IAW5AMEEPROMTool from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] to upload the eeprom data from the GRiSO ECU and download it to the ducati ECU.

I've read somewere that ducati stores in the eeprom more data that guzzi does - like the imobilizer key codes, and this may be the problem you face, the ecu does not recognize your key?
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Bison
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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:56 am

That's great info, thanks.
I've forwarded this to my son, who is somewhat more digital than me, I am the analog man in that song! He will do the computer work.
I wasn't sure whether the Guzzi actually had a coded key?, or an immobiliser?, but I have tried using my spare key, and int made no difference. I would have thought though that if the ecu didn't recognise the key it wouldn't start at all?, it does start with the Ducati ECU fitted.
Great though, something else to look into, thanks
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Bison
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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:05 am

Folks,
Now then, a whole new possibilities here. Just watched Pete's two vids on key coding etc, thanks Pete, and also a vid of a guy with a Breva who had the same symptoms as me, no start button. He unplugged the antenna, no joy, then unplugged the dash, and the bike started.
I will of course inspect this whole shebang tomorrow, however, it still doesn't answer the question why the key would be recognised by the replacement Ducati ECU, but not the repaired Norge one?.
However, lots to try tomorrow.
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avgpetro
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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:23 am

obviously the key data was a bad example for your case...
What I meant is that there are 2 parts of software that can copy from one ecu to the other, the map and the eeprom.
Copying only one of those maybe is not enough
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Bison
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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:54 pm

Hello folks,
Ah well, misplaced optimism I'm afraid.
I checked the two keys, they are coded in no problem, removed the antenna wire plug and checked for continuity, just fine, cleaned the contacts again, removed the dash, cleaned all the contacts again, no difference, still no start button, so I tried the thing I saw on Youtube when the guy disconnects the antenna, tries it, no joy, then reconnects the antenna and disconnects the dash plug, he presses the button and away it goes, but not on my bike I'm afraid. I went into the diagnosis on the dash, and for the first time there were old faults stored, but no current ones. 1,3,5,6, and 7, I went to clear codes, did that, it still had the stored codes, still no current ones. The only one I've seen before is when the tank is off and the fuel sensor one is on, 5?.
There were no untoward messages on the dash before or after I did all of this, nothing about the key not being recognised or anything apart from normal, of course stored codes said key not recognised and antenna broken, as I said, on the dash diagnosis page. Should clearing the codes clear the old stored ones too or any the current ones?.
So, time to remove the Guzzi ecu, again?. I'll wait until tomorrow when I hear from the ECU repair people.
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Bison
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Bison


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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Sun Jul 10, 2022 9:02 pm

With hindsight, I didn't really expect any of the above post to work, because none of what I did would explain why the starter button works with the Ducati ECU, and not with the Guzzi one, and vice versa, why the Ducati ECU has a TPS malfunction, but the Guzzi one doesn't?. I think this points to the ultimate coincidence, I have two ECU's with faults. But there again, the Guzzi one has been Fixed?.
Please refute my logic, I would like to hear?.
I will wait until I hear from the ECU repair people as I said before I make a decision.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Mon Jul 11, 2022 2:27 am

I can't see how the ecu could of been *fixed*? Any people I've heard of who have tried disassembling an ecu say it can't be done without destroying it.
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Bison
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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:02 am

Hi Pete,
I do more or less concur, however, one gets to a point where you think you've tried everything and there's only a couple of options left. I love the bike, when it's running!, I thought it was worth taking the chance, seems I was wrong.
I already have the perfect touring bike, my Mk3 Le Mans with super bike ultra low bars, a Corbin seat and small Krausers, no joy with the Norge soon and it's going, a real shame.
Alan.
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evansnows
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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:41 am

Maybe I'm blowing smoke out my arse, but if the bike starts and runs when you trigger the starter solenoid from the battery why not create a circuit - battery- circuit breaker or fuse - 12 volt solenoid to trigger the starter solenoid.
Trigger the circuit for the 12volt solenoid from a handle bar mounted  momentary switch.
Disconnect the original trigger wire to the starter solenoid and presumably the ecu wouldn't be affected.

I used a similar system when I upgraded my starter system except that I used the original circuit to trigger the 12 volt solenoid.
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http://c-space-solutions.com/
Bison
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Bison


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PostSubject: Re: Starter button   Starter button Icon_minitime1Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:04 am

Hi Folks,
I've been delaying this post so I could get some miles on, got about 250 now, so I didn't tempt fate. It's fixed, there, I said it, aaarrgghh.
To answer the last post, I had already purchased a starter button and was going to do as you suggested, but really I like to get to the bottom of things. And rigging the start button was I think the cause of me frying the ecu.
OK, Norge ECU wasn't fixed, but the "fixer will provide a new ECU at around £60 more, as I've already paid to have it fixed it's a no brainer.
It was Petros who got me wondering. I knew the TPS from the Ducati and the Norge were different, one adjusted manually, one electronically, but had no idea what controlled them other than the ecu. I had my son download the EEPROM from the Guzzi ecu, then I fitted the Ducati 5AM ECU again and had him write over the Ducati EEPROM with the Guzzi one. Fixed, the TPS is now steady.
The bike is running better than it ever has.
I'm pretty sure my original problem was caused by a faulty tilt switch, which I replaced, along with many other components.
So, many thanks people, I hope this will help another poor soul to avoid this journey!.
Alan.
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