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 Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions

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kiwi dave
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PostSubject: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:01 pm

I'm finally getting to the tune-up on my 08 Sport 1200. The bike has 26k KMs. My plan is to:

- change oil & filter
- replace air filter
- replace inner & outer plugs
- check / set valves
- balance the TBs
- install a Beetle map

I pulled the plugs. Do they look pretty lean?

The outer plug leads come out of their coils differently. One side upper post, one side lower post. There are little red dots on the coil posts that match red tape on the leads. I assume that's factory markings or maybe an OP marked them. Wonder if that is correct.

What should I set the valves at? .10 & .15?

Do I mess with the PVC system?

There is a nipple without a hose in the top of the airbox, then I found an unattached hose from the transmission. I assume that's where it goes?

There is a hose that runs to the tail section. Nothing on the end of it, but it looks like there was at one time. Maybe a 1-way valve? A small filter?

Is it correct that I don't need to figure out anything with the Lambda sensor as Mark's map disables it?

Any advice on the TB balance / map install / fuel trims, etc?

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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:05 pm

a few more pics:

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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:36 pm

So many questions, so little time...

Coils: the plugs are in series and the orientation of the plug leads at the coils is largely immaterial - both plugs use the head metal to complete the circuit, though none of it is referenced to frame/earth/ground/deck.

Breather at the top of the airbox is the gearbox breather - may have poked inside the snorkel if there is still one, else poke it in the hole. If you have a snorkel, remove it, as it increases the mid range slightly, with the downside of some extra induction roar.

One of the spigots is a blank - just ignore.

The hose under the seat, FIIK! Follow it back, not normal. Is it a vent for the Cardan (CARC)?

Yes 0.1 and 0.15 mm gap - Inlet, exhaust.

Reassemble inner and outer plugs with a dab of neverseze on the threads, just a smidgen is needed. Inner plugs rust - they are long life and should do for 60,000 km or more. Guzzi's change frequency is probably too often but you can see the condition they get to, so more often is better. I replace all plugs every 20,000 km - they don't cost much in the scheme of things and while you are in there...

Lambda is disabled, reset fuel trims when you do the TPS reset, after you do the TB balance. This is cyclic until you get the best outcome. My TB bleeds are both closed and are within a poofteenth of each other and match at 3k/4k rpm.

Both plugs look typical to how mine look. I think the inners run hotter. Mark or Pete might chime in on further information on plug condition.

The inner plug caps are now hard to find. One of mine broke recently. GreenSpark in the UK has stock but it might be worth an enquiry to suppliers as they are used on other engines in the M/C world: NGK VD05EMH is what you are after. I have two coming, plus a spare already. Apparently NGK are not making any more. The 90 degree cap from the outers will work at a pinch.

Brain dead after brain dump...
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:22 pm

I got through the tune-up, minus the TB balance. Tank removal went smoothly and was less fuss than I thought it might be. And a $20 thin-walled socket and extension from Amazon made changing the inner plugs a breeze. The valves were quite loose, .19/.23 - ish. I haven't ridden the bike, but it does idle a smidgen smoother, and the top end is less noisy.

I do now have a dash "Service" warning, along with the red triangle icon. Maybe because I unhooked the fuel pump and airbox sensor? Do I need a code to get in the diagnostics menu and reset the warning?

Next up, TB balance!
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:35 pm

Yes, you'll need the Sport code which I can't remember offhand. There are in fact two. One for bikes with the button switchblock and one for bikes with the toggle switchblock. Do an internet search, they'll pop up pretty much immediately. I can look later if you can't find them.

Once into the diagnostics clear the fault codes and the warning should go away. It's probably a memorised warning about the ATS being disconnected.

Now you do understand how to perform a throttlebody balance on a W5AM Guzzi?
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kiwi dave
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:59 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Yes, you'll need the Sport code which I can't remember offhand.

Service Code: 36421 for the 2V model. Not sure whether it's the same for the 4V Sport, I've never owned one.

Service Code: 12425 for the GRiSO 8V.
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:02 pm

Oz1200Guzzi wrote:

Brain dead after brain dump...

Thanks so much for the brain dump! It helped a lot. The tube that runs to the tail section is from the tank vent. Not sure what's going on there. It looks cobbled.

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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:05 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Now you do understand how to perform a throttlebody balance on a W5AM Guzzi?

I've done some reading, will do some more, but I admit I do not know the process just yet. I also wonder if I need to use GuzziDiag somehow in the TB balance or just the remap/reset.
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:07 pm

kiwi dave wrote:
Pete Roper wrote:
Yes, you'll need the Sport code which I can't remember offhand.

Service Code: 36421 for the 2V model.  Not sure whether it's the same for the 4V Sport, I've never owned one.

Service Code: 12425 for the GRiSO 8V.

Thanks! I have an 08 Sport 1200 (2V). First number should work!
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:47 pm

Yes, Guzzidiag itself is the diagnostic and tuning software. Reader and Writer are separate programmes that do exactly what they say. Very Happy

Performing a TB balance is ridiculously simple but you do need to have Guzzidiag connected to the bike as part of the process involves changing the effective length of the linkage rod between the two TB's and since the adjustment is on the left hand TB and the TPS is on the right hand TB when you do this it will alter the reading of the TPS. Since the ECU uses this reading as an interpretative rather than absolute value it, the ECU, has to be told that the *New* value is correct and this is what you do when you 'Re-set' the TPS.

So, first thing you do is connect your laptop and fire up Guzzidiag, (Or some other software if you have it.) and attach your manometers to the manifold ports.

Then close both air bleeds on the TB's.

Start the motor and warm it up until it is close to 60*C as shown by Guzzidiag.

Now by holding the cam the throttle cables go to on the LH throttlebody you can hold the engine speed at about 3,500-4,000 RPM and at the same time use the screw on the bell crank that controls the linkage rod between the TB's to even up the manifold vacuum at that point.

Once the high speed balance is equal or very close to on both sides let go of the throttle cam and allow the throttle plates to fully close.

Kill the motor with the kill switch, (Not the key or Guzzidiag will disconnect and then you'll have to reconnect before going further.) and flick the throttle a few times to make sure it's fully closed.

Now using the 'Re-set TPS' function in 'Actors' you can re-calibrate the ECU's interpretation of the TPS voltage as 'Correct'. Once you've done this there won't be clouds of fairy dust or dancing unicorns, it'll just say 'Action Complete' or some such.

Clear the trims using the 'Re-set parameters' function, again in actors, and then re-start the engine.

Check the manometers and whichever side has the highest manifold depression? Open the air bleed on that TB until both are equal.

Unplug manometer and reinstall blanking plugs. Disconnect Guzzidiag and remove cables. Put cap back on plug under seat, go ride.

It's that simple.
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:59 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Yes, Guzzidiag itself is the diagnostic and tuning software. Reader and Writer are separate programmes that do exactly what they say. Very Happy

Performing a TB balance is ridiculously simple but you do need to have Guzzidiag connected to the bike as part of the process involves changing the effective length of the linkage rod between the two TB's and since the adjustment is on the left hand TB and the TPS is on the right hand TB when you do this it will alter the reading of the TPS. Since the ECU uses this reading as an interpretative rather than absolute value it, the ECU, has to be told that the *New* value is correct and this is what you do when you 'Re-set' the TPS.

So, first thing you do is connect your laptop and fire up Guzzidiag, (Or some other software if you have it.) and attach your manometers to the manifold ports.

Then close both air bleeds on the TB's.

Start the motor and warm it up until it is close to 60*C as shown by Guzzidiag.

Now by holding the cam the throttle cables go to on the LH throttlebody you can hold the engine speed at about 3,500-4,000 RPM and at the same time use the screw on the bell crank that controls the linkage rod between the TB's to even up the manifold vacuum at that point.

Once the high speed balance is equal or very close to on both sides let go of the throttle cam and allow the throttle plates to fully close.

Kill the motor with the kill switch, (Not the key or Guzzidiag will disconnect and then you'll have to reconnect before going further.) and flick the throttle a few times to make sure it's fully closed.

Now using the 'Re-set TPS' function in 'Actors' you can re-calibrate the ECU's interpretation of the TPS voltage as 'Correct'. Once you've done this there won't be clouds of fairy dust or dancing unicorns, it'll just say 'Action Complete' or some such.

Clear the trims using the 'Re-set parameters' function, again in actors, and then re-start the engine.

Check the manometers and whichever side has the highest manifold depression? Open the air bleed on that TB until both are equal.

Unplug manometer and reinstall blanking plugs. Disconnect Guzzidiag and remove cables. Put cap back on plug under seat, go ride.

It's that simple.

This thread has pics, is the same on the 1200 Sport as the GRiSO, though the air bleeds are different on the 4V motors. Same principles though and the belcrank screw is shown in the pics for the high speed balance. I found that open air bleeds make the motor cold blooded off idle. Took me a while to hunt that problem down. When I did the balance and closed them, only opening slightly to balance idle, the cold bloodedness (staling on throttle input when cold) went away. YMMV

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Last edited by Bulldog9 on Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:32 pm


I made a PDF of the balance procedure, if anyone is interested...with pics

LINKY





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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:38 pm

Update:

After many attempts, I was able to clear the Dashboard Service warning. But it came back today, and it won't clear via the Diagnostic menu. It's code DSB 07, which I understand to be the oil presser sensor? I changed the oil a week ago. I keep checking the level and it's good. Wonder if I disturbed a wire when doing the tank / airbox removal in the last few days?

I balanced the TB's (thanks to everyone's input, and Beetle's PDF) They were out of balance at 3500 and idle. I reset TPS and auto learn using GuzziDiag. Bike ran good, a bit smoother between 65-90 mph. But decel popping was as bad as ever. (Mistral exhaust, no cat, factory map)

I loaded a Beetle map but then when I went to reset TPS & auto learn, GuzziDiag kept crashing on my Mac. It's always been a bit hinky on my Mac, but I was able to get V46 working pretty solidly for my V7, and again yesterday when doing the TB balance on the Sport. But now, no matter what I do, GD crashes, so I wasn't able to reset TPS & auto learn. I took the bike for a ride just to see how it might run, and while the dreaded decel-popping is gone (thanks goodness!) the bike seems to be running lumpy / vibey. Of course, without resetting the TPS / auto learn, I can't expect to get a good picture.

Should I go back to the factory map until I can get GuzziDiag back up and running (on an old PC), or is it too late? (reader & writer are working fine) Or should I just reset the TPS when I can, or should I reload the Beetle map and then not run it until the GuzziDiag reset? Would the failure to do the TPS reset account for the vibey running? Or could it possibly be tied to the return of the DSB service code? The fact that the code is oil pressure related causes some angst.

Thanks for the continued input on this board!





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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:19 pm


You will need to reset the TPS again if you load the factory map. You will need to get it working and reset both TPS and autolearning before we can make any diagnosis.

The DSB 07 is likely a wiring or connector issue to the oil pressure sensor.




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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:24 pm

Oil pressure sensor is in the valley under the alternator. If it has the original T-button terminal, these are problematic in that they don't always have good contact. I replaced mine with a 1/4" quick connect spade and a 3 mm (I think) screw. The original round connector just unscrews.

However, it might be the sensor itself (a know problem) or the sump spaced gasket. The sum spacer gasket sits between the block and sump spacer and is know to be fragile and blow out the gasket material for the high pressure oil. To replace the spacer and sump gasket cost around $25 and takes around 40 minutes the first time. VERY GOOD INSURANCE to do this.

The sensor itself I think is a 22 mm hex deep in the valley. It will require tank removal (again) and airbox removal (again) to access.
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:03 pm

beetle wrote:

You will need to reset the TPS again if you load the factory map. You will need to get it working and reset both TPS and autolearning before we can make any diagnosis.

The DSB 07 is likely a wiring or connector issue to the oil pressure sensor.


Thank you sir. I'll get GuzziDiag running, do the reset, then report back.
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:16 pm

Oz1200Guzzi wrote:
Oil pressure sensor is in the valley under the alternator. If it has the original T-button terminal, these are problematic in that they don't always have good contact. I replaced mine with a 1/4" quick connect spade and a 3 mm (I think) screw. The original round connector just unscrews.

However, it might be the sensor itself (a know problem) or the sump spaced gasket. The sum spacer gasket sits between the block and sump spacer and is know to be fragile and blow out the gasket material for the high pressure oil. To replace the spacer and sump gasket cost around $25 and takes around 40 minutes the first time. VERY GOOD INSURANCE to do this.

The sensor itself I think is a 22 mm hex deep in the valley. It will require tank removal (again) and airbox removal (again) to access.

Thanks for the info!

I went out to the garage to try an error delete one last time, and lo and behold, the warning was gone. I then went in and successfully cleared the memorized error. I wonder if this points to more of a connector issue vs sump spacer gasket? Either way, I'm going to pull the tank and have a look at the sensor. I need confidence in the oil status.

Also, I wonder how warm the engine needs to be to check oil level? Cold, it's at the top line. When hot, it's a bit difficult to see a definitive level on the stick. I put 3.6 L in on the last change, and it seemed a bit over-full. Then I realized I had pre-loaded the filter with 200-300 ml and didn't subtract that amount when I filled the engine. There was oil in the airbox when I changed the filter, so I used my oil suction tool to remove 200 ml from the sump. I can't imagine the level is that finicky to the sensor or to safe operation of the engine?

My dashboard errors:

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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:14 pm

[quote="CanBike"]I put 3.6 L in on the last change, and it seemed a bit over-full. Then I realized I had pre-loaded the filter with 200-300 ml and didn't subtract that amount when I filled the engine. There was oil in the airbox when I changed the filter, so I used my oil suction tool to remove 200 ml from the sump. I can't imagine the level is that finicky to the sensor or to safe operation of the engine?

Yes it is that finicky.... if the oil level is over halfway up the stick it may be too far
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:33 pm

Rule of thumb:
- Fill filter
- Add 3 litres to sump
- Adjust if needed

The sump is big enough
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:03 pm

CanBike wrote:
Update:

After many attempts, I was able to clear the Dashboard Service warning. But it came back today, and it won't clear via the Diagnostic menu. It's code DSB 07, which I understand to be the oil presser sensor? I changed the oil a week ago. I keep checking the level and it's good. Wonder if I disturbed a wire when doing the tank / airbox removal in the last few days?

I balanced the TB's (thanks to everyone's input, and Beetle's PDF) They were out of balance at 3500 and idle. I reset TPS and auto learn using GuzziDiag. Bike ran good, a bit smoother between 65-90 mph. But decel popping was as bad as ever. (Mistral exhaust, no cat, factory map)

I loaded a Beetle map but then when I went to reset TPS & auto learn, GuzziDiag kept crashing on my Mac. It's always been a bit hinky on my Mac, but I was able to get V46 working pretty solidly for my V7, and again yesterday when doing the TB balance on the Sport. But now, no matter what I do, GD crashes, so I wasn't able to reset TPS & auto learn. I took the bike for a ride just to see how it might run, and while the dreaded decel-popping is gone (thanks goodness!) the bike seems to be running lumpy / vibey. Of course, without resetting the TPS / auto learn, I can't expect to get a good picture.

Should I go back to the factory map until I can get GuzziDiag back up and running (on an old PC), or is it too late? (reader & writer are working fine) Or should I just reset the TPS when I can, or should I reload the Beetle map and then not run it until the GuzziDiag reset? Would the failure to do the TPS reset account for the vibey running? Or could it possibly be tied to the return of the DSB service code? The fact that the code is oil pressure related causes some angst.

Thanks for the continued input on this board!






If I remember correctly, if the oil pressure sensor is bad, the Oil Pressure "Triangle of Death" light will come on and stay on with the ignition key and engine not running. I've had the one on my 12S and GRiSO go out.  Was NOT fun to change on either, but the GRiSO was much easier than the 12S....

My light was intermittent and would come and go, but eventually stayed on. A new sensor fixed it.
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:17 pm

The oil pump and circuit in a 2V motor is very simple. Pumps failing for whatever reason are virtually unheard of, the commonest forms of oil pressure failure are either the filter coming undone/loose which on any CARC bike except the Bellagio will result in massive external oil loss or alternatively the oil pressure relief valve sticking open, (Rare.) or unscrewing/falling to bits, (Rarer still!).

One of the important things to remember is that checking the oil level is pretty pointless in this situation. Unless the engine has run out, and to achieve that without a drain plug falling out or other massive leak provider, it would of had to of burnt it. If it was burning bulk oil it would smoke like an early twentieth century tramp steamer with a leaky boiler!

The warning light is triggered by lack of pressure and the amount of pressure required to un-seat the switch is really feeble, less than 1 bar, between 8 and 10 psi from memory. By the time it comes on, especially if the engine is spinning and working a bit, it'll be all over. The life expectancy of a plain bearing in a virtually zero pressure environment can be measured in seconds at the very best. In reality by the time you notice the light is on it will probably be making the 'Dogga-Dogga' noise.

Guzzi switches are notoriously unreliable but it's odd. Some, on some bikes, seem to last forever. I've never replaced one on the yellow bike for instance in 140,000 km. My last SP 1000 had an ENORMOUS appetite for them though! Sometimes non-nomming it's way through them at the rate of one every three months! I used to carry a bag of the fuckers with me like a dirty old man's boiled lollies and could swap one out at the side of the road in 15 minutes. It would of been five but the SP lower fairing got in the way!

So while one should never ignore a low pressure warning as long as the crank hasn't seized you can usually safely assume that the problem is the switch. Tony's observation of the sump spacer gasket being a risk point though is valid and if your oil light starts to flicker at idle or you get the 'Triangle of Death', especially in hot weather, then it really behoves you to check it out as pulling the crank is a bit of a pain.

On a 2V GRiSO you can get to the switch easily enough by removing the left 'Wing' and header pipe which will allow access to the switch. On the Sport I'll defer to Tony as I can't remember if the airbox is in the way or not. If you do have to pull the airbox take very great care not to snap off the spigot for the rear drain tube at the back left of the airbox. If you forget to disconnect the hose it's all to easy to break it
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:57 am

@CanBike
Have you got rid of that DSB07 error code yet?
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PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:25 pm

Thanks for everyone's continued input.

@lcjohnny
I got rid of the DSB07 code, but I'm no longer super confident so I'm going to replace the sensor and the sump spacer gasket.

@Pete Roper
My dad always told me on his old airheads that the oil light actually just meant rebuild engine. If the light was on for good reason, it was too late. But your description of the way some MG bikes "nom-nomming"  the sensors up gives me hope it's not really low on oil, plus I'd still be standing by the side of the road.

@Oz1200Guzzi
I'll give that method a try. I plan to change out the oil again when I do the sump spacer.

I have found a sensor and gasket at MGcycle.

Gasket:
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This the right gasket?

Sensor:
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I understand the "nail" top is no longer available? I might need to change out the connector?

Still tracking down a cheapo PC laptop to get GuzziDiag going.

Thanks!
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Pete Roper
GRiSO Capo
GRiSO Capo
Pete Roper


Posts : 9468
Join date : 2013-05-29
Age : 65

Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:58 pm

No that's the sump gasket, you'll likely need one of them as well but the SPACER gasket goes between the spacer and the block.

This one.

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The sensor is the one you require. You may need to change the fitting on the wire that goes to it but it's the same sensor and has the correct, coarse, thread.
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CanBike
Carlotto
Carlotto
CanBike


Posts : 30
Join date : 2022-01-22

Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions   Sport 1200 (2V) Tune-up questions Icon_minitime1Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:44 am

Pete Roper wrote:
No that's the sump gasket, you'll likely need one of them as well but the SPACER gasket goes between the spacer and the block.

This one.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The sensor is the one you require. You may need to change the fitting on the wire that goes to it but it's the same sensor and has the correct, coarse, thread.

Thanks Pete! I made the change and placed an order with mgcycle.

Side question while I wait for parts (and a PC to run GuzziDiag): what pollution stuff, charcoal box, evap, hoses, etc, can / should I remove while I have the tank off again? I'm in Canada, but it was a U.S. bike and also has the tubes from the TB / intake elbows.

It also has a tank vent hose running to the tail. It's pretty stinky. Wonder if it ran down somewhere else originally or had a filter or 1-way valve on the end of the hose?

Thanks.
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