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 Engine Noise

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Gootzibird13
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sidrat
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PostSubject: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:29 am

Its all subjective i know, but the bike best bike i have ever owned for engine noise when sat on it, was a Ducati S4rs Monster, the one with the 150bhp 998 motor in it. When you got to the last 750 revs before the red line, it was like a machine gun going off, fantastic! I had owned the Ducati S4r previously and that didn't make the same noise.

Yesterday on a bimble to work, i opened up GRiSO, as you do, to the red line in the middle three gears and the sound is fantastic too, the noise from the exhaust falls away, the rumble disappears and a very serious noise, not unlike the Ducati makes itself known before you have to change up. I always look at the GRiSO as a low tech engine, being aircooled and didn't expect such a sophisticated highly tuned sound. It maybe that it is now starting to run in at 8,000 miles or I have in the past concentrated more on where i was going!!, but it is a great noise.

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:08 pm

Maybe not so much 'a sophisticated highly tuned sound', but a more 'raw and visceral noise'.

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Josh.C
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:31 am

My brother has the S4R, which I really like and could have ended up with instead of the GRiSO. I really like the tricolore version of the S4RS too.

But I have no regrets.
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waterbottle
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:02 am

Arn't dactari's still chain drive ?    Rolling Eyes  ( Easy .... just taking the piss    Laughing )
Edit: I do have friends with Duck-a-ty's
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:21 am

Well, I found out what was causing my great chunk of shit to be so noisy.

The RH big end shells are toast. At first I thought it was big end as it was very similar to the noise that Mark S's bike was making but then as I was preparing to rip into the sump I found that the RH exhaust pipe stud on the head had snapped off!

So, getting that fixed I thought 'Maybe it was just the pipe knocking in the head?' Thankfully I took my own councel and persevered. Popped off the rod cap and the bottom shell was OK. Top one fell out of the rod and is toast. Given how little material had to be removed when Mark's rods were closed and ground I'm going to just slip in a new set of shells and hope that cures it. I also found a bit of gasket missing from around the oil pick-up gallery between the spacer and crankcase. Now I've had the sump off before but never the spacer so it must of been missing ex-factory! Grrrrrrrr! Goes to show how bloody tough they are though! 88,750 km of thrashing with the oil pump sucking air and only now the big ends cry 'Uncle'.

They may not build 'em particularly well in Mandello but jeez they make 'em tough! Probably just as well! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:09 am

Really nice Kawi too Waterbottle!
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:33 am

lucky Pete. You doing the LH side while you are in there?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:49 am

Oh shit yeah! What's the point of simply doing one? If I was going to skimp like that I'd just top & tail the shells like we used to with knocking Triumphs back in the day when we were stupid poor!

So far I've only pulled the left because I don't want both rods 'Loose' in the case at the same time or risk mixing the caps up!

I'd actually ordered a set of bearing shells from AF1 and luck would have it they were the right ones, (Most engines seem to use the 'Red' crank.) and new bolts a week ago so it shouldn't be off the road for long. Crankpin looks fine. I'll risk ovalisation of the big ends because it was still going hard, just very noisily!

Note that if you are in Oz buying the shells I the U.S. is a really good idea. $20 each, (Covering shipping costs.) versus $66 from here! I did this for Mark S's bike. It wasn't a huge saving but it was worth it! Just make sure you get the right shells.

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:06 am

So Pete, 88750 km, Unreal Thumbs Up Are you reusing the same pistons, rings etc
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:26 am

It's a well made piece of shit. Daniel Kalal's old Cali 2 was retired at 450,000 miles and it had never had the heads off!

My opinion is that while there was some poor thought and not enough development put in to the early iterations of the 8V the design is overall no more or less reliable than the old 2V models.

I love the 8V. It is still 'Visceral' in a way that many modern bikes aren't. It is also wonderfully simple and a joy to ride while being comfortable enough for even a broken-down old fart like me to still be able to feel like he's making an effort from time to time.

I would be disappointed in ANY modern vehicle that couldn't crack 100,000km without major work. In my experience poor servicing and ignorance of tuning is a far greater threat to the 8V than design faults. Mark S's and my bikes had both had tappet failures and mine had a faulty gasket seal on the lubricating oil pick-up. While some may think this is apologism for the marque I just see it as bad luck in my case and poor servicing prior to his ownership on Mark's. I don't baby my GRiSO. I revel in it! These sort of minor niggles are something I just consider the price of entry.

Pete

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frypan
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:02 pm


I also found a bit of gasket missing from around the oil pick-up gallery between the spacer and crankcase. wrote:
Hey Pete,
Would that be similar to the missing gasket material pictured in the photo I sent on my wife's Norge (Norge Clanking)? My shop mechanic said the bolts seemed to be barely tight. Must have been put together by limp wristed Luigi. Rolling Eyes
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:57 pm

Mine were tight enough, gasket must of just been installed torn. Linky to pic of Norge sump?

Pete
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frypan
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:03 pm

Image below. Post was in Grisology under 'Clanking Engine On Norge'

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:53 am

The missing bit wasn't stuck to the block? Mine was a small tear. That looks more like just a gasket that disintegrated as the spacer was removed. No worries though now that it's fixed.

Pete
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frypan
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:04 am

Unfortunately that missing gasket was not stuck to the block. Bits were found in the sump. It appears the oil pressure along with under torqued bolts caused the gasket to fail (break away). Engine emitted a nasty clanking at idle. It may have been that there was a tear or break that was the start of the destruction. Since replacement the engine has been quite. keeping fingers crossed that we don't have to go the same route as you. Bike has 58,000kms.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:30 am

Shit! So it was clanking? And they didn't just drop the caps off for a look? From where they were at its only another ten minutes work. I'd expect there to be substantial damage similar to mine if it was clanking. A plain bearing just can't work without oil pressure. The oil isn't in there to 'Make bits slippery'.

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:07 am

Shocked I sure hope no damage. I'll mention it it to the shop this weekend. affraid
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:07 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Well, I found out what was causing my great chunk of shit to be so noisy.

The RH big end shells are toast. At first I thought it was big end as it was very similar to the noise that Mark S's bike was making but then as I was preparing to rip into the sump I found that the RH exhaust pipe stud on the head had snapped off!

So, getting that fixed I thought 'Maybe it was just the pipe knocking in the head?' Thankfully I took my own councel and persevered. Popped off the rod cap and the bottom shell was OK. Top one fell out of the rod and is toast. Given how little material had to be removed when Mark's rods were closed and ground I'm going to just slip in a new set of shells and hope that cures it. I also found a bit of gasket missing from around the oil pick-up gallery between the spacer and crankcase. Now I've had the sump off before but never the spacer so it must of been missing ex-factory! Grrrrrrrr! Goes to show how bloody tough they are though! 88,750 km of thrashing with the oil pump sucking air and only now the big ends cry 'Uncle'.

They may not build 'em particularly well in Mandello but jeez they make 'em tough! Probably just as well! Very Happy

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Pete

Hello Pete,

I believe due to gasket on flange blowing and sucking air. I have exactly the same
thing occuring causing a knocking noise primarily on right side at idle. If I blip throttle it goes away. No noticable noise under way or anything above idle for that matter. But it does occur intermittently cold or hot upon occasion, mostly at idle startup. Would blown gasket cause the chain tensioner to tick loudly at cold start up be further evidence of gasket leak to help me proceed?

Note: the ticking and knocking are 2 separate sounds coming off right cylinder side. It's a 2013 SE and fully rollerized. 63456 miles currently.

Thank you sir

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:52 pm

Yes, most likely a blown gasket. Drop the sump and spacer and if it has blown it will be obvious. You might get away with just replacing the gasket but while it's off it's not really much more effort to drop the ros cap off, push the piston up the bore and have a squizz at the shells. If they are worn you can replace them without taking anything else to bits. Just make sure the rod and cap are scrupulously clean and dry before putting the new shells in and don't mix up the rod caps, (Doing them one at a time will prevent that happening.) slather the bearing face with assembly lube before reassembling the cap on the rod and make sure the cap is on the right way.

Tighten the rod bolts in three steps and after each step make sure the crank is free to turn. If it locks up something is wrong!

Note that the big end shells and crank are colour coded. You should be able to see a dab of colour on the side of the shell. Make sure you replace like with like. You can't fit 'Blue' shells in place of red ones or visa versa.

PS. This is the reason we always suggest replacing the spacer gasket pre-emptively on all 8V's except those last 2015 on Grisos that use the Cali 14 sump. We do it as a matter of course on any bike we rollerise.
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:04 am

Copy that Pete. 3 specific questions sir-

1) can't find torque specs for the 4 bolts that help hold on the flange in my manual ?NM
2) should I replace the 4 bolts on the caps with new ones in addition to both upper and lower shells?
3) Locktite red ok?

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:57 am

my factory roller is a bit clanky at idle, but I thought all grisos were like that...

I did the gasket swap a couple of years ago but didn't know it was worth checking the shells.

hmmm. A job for next time it snows perhaps.



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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:24 am

Gootzibird13 wrote:
Copy that Pete. 3 specific questions sir-

1) can't find torque specs for the 4 bolts that help hold on the flange in my manual ?NM
2) should I replace the 4 bolts on the caps with new ones in addition to both upper and lower shells?
3) Locktite red ok?


1.) Which ones? But they are all 6mm threads so I do them by feel. Even using an inch/pounds 1/4 drive torque wrench I'd be afraid of stripping them.

2.) Best practice is to always use new rod bolts but the reality is the bolts used by Guzzi are not 'Torque to yield' bolts and unless they have been abused can seemingly be re-used. Ideally you'd measure them before removal and re-torque to the same stretch but just doing it to book torque seems to be fine.

3.) Loctite red on what? The big end bolts? God no! A light smear of oil if anything. Generally just put them in clean and torque in three steps.

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Lazlokovacs
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:54 am

....not that i would ever query Roper's vast trove of guzzi knowledge, but as an alternative point of view, if it was me I would replace the bolts...

I once had a very experienced mechanic re-use flyheel bolts in one of my tontis, wasn't fun when I had to go back in there after a couple of them had sheared off.

Since then, for anything to do with engine internal bolts, I'm firmly in the replace camp.

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:48 pm

Thanks Gents for input. Embarking on internal work of this motor it's been limited to say the least. Motor has just been that good to me. I haven't handled a internal combustion crankshaft since high school. Obviously, doing something wrong with these critical components simply is not an option. I will continue to run this motor as is and if the knock becomes any more consistent I will park and go to work on it. Mainly because parts are out two months now backordered for both my part resources. Understandable due to August and culture of off time in Italy setting things back as it always does. I will get some pics of work and findings to help give back when I'm able. I am aware that eventually it needs a look see to be sure. Good day and ride on....
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Noise   Engine Noise Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 05, 2022 9:50 pm

It needs looking at now.

Replacing the gasket is a very easy job. You don't have to remove the crank to get to the big end bearings, you can do it with the crank in-situ. I have both types of shell in stock. You just need to identify which crank you have via its colour coding to pick the right ones.

If it has blown out the gasket, by continuing to ride it you risk far more serious damage. At least do the gasket. It may solve the issue.
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