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 GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus

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Cantaloop
Carlotto
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PostSubject: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:01 pm

My GRiSO does not like hot weather. If the temperature are above 25 Degrees Celsius, the GRiSO does not crank. I already cleaned the battery poles, changed the battery, cleaned the ground contact and the start switch. Now I like to follow your advice and add a stronger power line to the battery and the relais. But I dont know which line to cut. Some are talking about red tiny cables, or green red ones, or yellow... Which colour is the right one?
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The Green/Orange one is thicker...

Please help me.... which color is correct to add an aditional power line? Weather is hot in Germany. I do not want to walk because my GRiSO does not work.
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kiwi dave
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:27 pm

Green/Orange feeds Pin 3 the starter relay, and Red/Yellow wire on pin 5 of the starter relay feeds the power to the starter solenoid.  Both are in the circuit, but if the Green/Orange one is already larger than the Red/Yellow, perhaps increase the latter since both are in the circuit.

Kiwi Roy did some measurements about the improvement gained, you can probably find his post on this site with a search.
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Cantaloop
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:31 pm

Hi Dave, yeah I found the posts of Kiwi Roy. But this does not make my decision easier which wire to cut and reconnect with an increased on... my electric understanding is weak. But if I put more power on RED/Yellow and the relais switches there will be more power on the Green/Orange wire too. Am I wrong?
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kiwi dave
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:39 pm

I wouldn't cut and replace anything. Adding another wire in parallel will help reduce the volt drop. But I'm sceptical this is the real problem.

Perhaps the starter motor needs an overhaul. It might be time to take some voltage measurements along the path from the battery to the starter motor.

I can't come up with any reason why it should be worse in hotter weather.
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:07 am

Could you elaborate on "Does not crank when hot"
Do you hear the starter engage and try and turn or just a faint click from the relay
If you hear nothing at all it could be a low battery Voltage problem, what is the dash reading?

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It's a 2006, the feed for the start relay doesn't go through the ignition switch.
Red/yellow wire Fuse C to relay terminal 5
Actually looking at the picture you posted of the relay socket the wires look quite beefy. Can you check the relay socket for power on the Green/Red wire with the key Off and key On, it may be different in your part of the world.

I found the wire from relay to starter solenoid was woefully small on my 06, just increasing it to 18 AWG (1 mm diameter) decreased the time it takes to throw in the solenoid and start cranking to 1/3 of what it was.
I never looked at the wire feeding the relay but why would that be any different?

The wires on the relay 3 & 5 terminals are subjected to ~ 40 Amps when you touch the start button.
"Wardest" suggested using the spade connector intended for an electric range element for the solenoid end, that seems like a good idea, probably has better contact than the cheapo ones from the usual source.

What is the mileage on your GRiSO?


Last edited by Kiwi_Roy on Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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not-fishing
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:03 pm

Being lazy and basically a parts changer I just picked up the kit from MPH Cycles and installed.

You have to call them to get the order in now.....

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MPH Cycles
16510 Park Row
Houston, Texas 77084
832 557 7214
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:37 pm

not-fishing wrote:
Being lazy and basically a parts changer I just picked up the kit from MPH Cycles and installed.

You have to call them to get the order in now.....


The main reason the MPH kits work so well, it bypasses the ignition switch with a direct feed to the start relay, however the start relay on the early GRiSO is already fed directly or at least it is on my 07.
The existing wire from the relay to solenoid is too small.
The MPH kit for these early Grisos should have a decent wire to replace the one going from relay to solenoid.

I would encourage you to read my thread on the topic, I probably haven't explained myself very well but if you have a question I will elaborate.
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Don't get me wrong, I think the MPH kit is great, I just don't see it working it's magic when the relay is already directly fed.
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:24 pm

Diving into a rocky bottom here, but....

Paralleling wires to reduce the resistance is not a good practice. Yes it reduces the resistance between 2 points, but creates a pile of problems later on (dry/bad joints, corrosion etc); makes messy wiring (usually outside the existing harness), and does nothing to improve the interconnects involved (plugs/sockets, switches and the like).

The Startus Interruptus kit from MPH or other suppliers, or the simple fix documented elsewhere here, works. It is as simple as that. This solution is not a "fix", it is an alternative that gets rid of the original problem (which has been plaguing Moto Guzzi for decades) of too many joins, too small a csa of wire, and a tortuous path between source and end, causing problems later in the life of a machine (rarely at birth or infancy). This is an engineering solution that is safe and does what it says it does. No ifs, no buts.

The other cause of "Startus Interruptus" is a dying battery (or maybe it's already dead). This causes the exact same symptoms as the problem mentioned here. How do you know your battery is dying? Go get it checked by a battery expert. Putting a multimeter on the battery will tell you the float voltage. It will not tell you if it has capacity to start your bike.

I'm leaving, now (call it running away) that I've chucked some rocks!
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not-fishing
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:39 pm

Kiwi_Roy wrote:
I would encourage you to read my thread on the topic, I probably haven't explained myself very well but if you have a question I will elaborate.
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You mean I actually have to think?  

Rats!

I just want to buy the part and stick it on --- because I'm easily confused.

OK, after reading your post referenced, I see I must replace the tiny red wire from the starter relay to the solenoid with a slightly less tiny red for those who follow the KISS principal   wire and things will be better.

Mark
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:27 pm

not-fishing wrote:
Kiwi_Roy wrote:
I would encourage you to read my thread on the topic, I probably haven't explained myself very well but if you have a question I will elaborate.
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You mean I actually have to think?  

Rats!

I just want to buy the part and stick it on --- because I'm easily confused.

OK, after reading your post referenced, I see I must replace the tiny red wire from the starter relay to the solenoid with a slightly less tiny red for those who follow the KISS principal   wire and things will be better.

Mark
Yes, if you look at the picture in the Cantaloop posted you can clearly see the red wire is somewhat smaller
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The Green and the Red wire carry the same current. The other 2 wires on the relay can be tiny because there's only about 100 milliamps in them.
But first of all test the Green/Orange to make sure it is always powered even with the key Off and get back to us.
The schematic shows it powered from always alive 20 Amp fuse C which means the MPH kit will do nothing for it but I have learned to take the Guzzi schematics with a grain of salt.


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In 2008 when the 8 Valve GRiSO came out Luigi completely changed the wiring adding an extra relay and fed the relays from the ignition switch AGAIN proving he still hasn't figured out what's wrong with the starter, thats where MPH mods come into play, they disregard the ignition switch feed and put it straight off the battery where it belongs.
In other words MPH cuts the yellow wire and feeds it from a new fuse at the battery, this is done between the Male plug and Female socket, simple as that.
The GRiSO is just one of many models that suffer from this error.

I may be completely wrong but I have a theory the factory think the starter solenoid draws about 10 Amps which would be fine passing through all the spaghetti wiring and the ignition switch, if only they drew the starter solenoid correctly they might realize their error and save untold Guzzis from becoming trailer queens.
Rant over.
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Cantaloop
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:22 am

I just came back from a track day in Oschersleben which is located in the eastern part of Germany. And it was fu..ing hot - more than 36 degrees celsius. And the GRiSO did not crank again when I wanted to do my second turn. Before I went to Oschersleben I cut the yellow/orange wire and connected it directly to the battery. And nothing happened. I tried to figure out - no power on the solenoid wire. So I connected the divorced wires again, and the GRiSO cranked. I did not have time to try other solutions. So I decided to teke the GRiSO with me to the race track. Battery power on the display was 12,7 when it did not crank. I can hear a quiet click, when pushing the start button. But nothing happens. Then I parked the black bitch in the shadow under the tent. And it cranked, no matter at which temperature. I changed the battery twice. I checked all fuses. I am really helpless and frustrated now. I hate non-reliable motorcycles. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It is a 2006 GRiSO, mileage is low: 13000km

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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:30 am

Cantaloop wrote:
Battery power on the display was 12,7 when it did not crank. I can hear a quiet click, when pushing the start button. But nothing happens. Then I parked the black bitch in the shadow under the tent. And it cranked, no matter at which temperature.  

It is a 2006 GRiSO, mileage is low: 13000km

I'm not quite sure if you have changed the wire from the relay to solenoid or not.
The original wire is far too small (I'm guessing 0.5 mm2) and has too much Voltage drop to pull the solenoid into place, hence the quiet click. It must be so critical that the extra resistance due to the heat just puts it over the top.
I suggest you replace the wire with at least 1.5 mm2 (Nth America 16 AWG)
I replaced mine (same year bike) with an 18 AWG (~ 1.0 mm2) it now operates the solenoid 3 x faster than before.

Wardest suggested providing a better spade connector at the solenoid connection, I think he has a valid point.
wardest wrote:
Regarding “Startus Interuptus”
I was inspecting the spade connector to the starter solenoid . The female connector appears to have been anealled as it quite soft and only requires the lightest finger touch to slide it off.
Has anyone narrowed the starting issue with the quality of connection at the starter solenoid spade connector?
 He used the spade connector intended for an oven element, IMHO this is a good idea.

Another tip, leave a loop in the relay to solenoid wire long enough to reach the battery positive terminal. If it doesn't crank you can bare the insulation and slap it on the terminal, almost guaranteed to crank that way and will prove it's not the starter itself.

Note: This fix is specific to the 4 valve motor with the Start Relay powered directly from a fuse, the 8 valve has the Start Relay powered through the ignition switch. I think Luigi must have put a fatter wire in these, anyone care to check?

ALWAYS apply some grease to the battery terminals after you scrape them clean, if I had a $ for every battery that could have been saved from scrap by a little Vaseline I would be a billionaire.
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