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 GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus

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Cantaloop
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:01 pm

My GRiSO does not like hot weather. If the temperature are above 25 Degrees Celsius, the GRiSO does not crank. I already cleaned the battery poles, changed the battery, cleaned the ground contact and the start switch. Now I like to follow your advice and add a stronger power line to the battery and the relais. But I dont know which line to cut. Some are talking about red tiny cables, or green red ones, or yellow... Which colour is the right one?
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The Green/Orange one is thicker...

Please help me.... which color is correct to add an aditional power line? Weather is hot in Germany. I do not want to walk because my GRiSO does not work.
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kiwi dave
Tiradritto
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:27 pm

Green/Orange feeds Pin 3 the starter relay, and Red/Yellow wire on pin 5 of the starter relay feeds the power to the starter solenoid.  Both are in the circuit, but if the Green/Orange one is already larger than the Red/Yellow, perhaps increase the latter since both are in the circuit.

Kiwi Roy did some measurements about the improvement gained, you can probably find his post on this site with a search.
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Cantaloop
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:31 pm

Hi Dave, yeah I found the posts of Kiwi Roy. But this does not make my decision easier which wire to cut and reconnect with an increased on... my electric understanding is weak. But if I put more power on RED/Yellow and the relais switches there will be more power on the Green/Orange wire too. Am I wrong?
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kiwi dave
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:39 pm

I wouldn't cut and replace anything. Adding another wire in parallel will help reduce the volt drop. But I'm sceptical this is the real problem.

Perhaps the starter motor needs an overhaul. It might be time to take some voltage measurements along the path from the battery to the starter motor.

I can't come up with any reason why it should be worse in hotter weather.
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Kiwi_Roy
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:07 am

Could you elaborate on "Does not crank when hot"
Do you hear the starter engage and try and turn or just a faint click from the relay
If you hear nothing at all it could be a low battery Voltage problem, what is the dash reading?

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It's a 2006, the feed for the start relay doesn't go through the ignition switch.
Red/yellow wire Fuse C to relay terminal 5
Actually looking at the picture you posted of the relay socket the wires look quite beefy. Can you check the relay socket for power on the Green/Red wire with the key Off and key On, it may be different in your part of the world.

I found the wire from relay to starter solenoid was woefully small on my 06, just increasing it to 18 AWG (1 mm diameter) decreased the time it takes to throw in the solenoid and start cranking to 1/3 of what it was.
I never looked at the wire feeding the relay but why would that be any different?

The wires on the relay 3 & 5 terminals are subjected to ~ 40 Amps when you touch the start button.
"Wardest" suggested using the spade connector intended for an electric range element for the solenoid end, that seems like a good idea, probably has better contact than the cheapo ones from the usual source.

What is the mileage on your GRiSO?


Last edited by Kiwi_Roy on Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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not-fishing
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:03 pm

Being lazy and basically a parts changer I just picked up the kit from MPH Cycles and installed.

You have to call them to get the order in now.....

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MPH Cycles
16510 Park Row
Houston, Texas 77084
832 557 7214
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:37 pm

not-fishing wrote:
Being lazy and basically a parts changer I just picked up the kit from MPH Cycles and installed.

You have to call them to get the order in now.....


The main reason the MPH kits work so well, it bypasses the ignition switch with a direct feed to the start relay, however the start relay on the early GRiSO is already fed directly or at least it is on my 07.
The existing wire from the relay to solenoid is too small.
The MPH kit for these early Grisos should have a decent wire to replace the one going from relay to solenoid.

I would encourage you to read my thread on the topic, I probably haven't explained myself very well but if you have a question I will elaborate.
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Don't get me wrong, I think the MPH kit is great, I just don't see it working it's magic when the relay is already directly fed.
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:24 pm

Diving into a rocky bottom here, but....

Paralleling wires to reduce the resistance is not a good practice. Yes it reduces the resistance between 2 points, but creates a pile of problems later on (dry/bad joints, corrosion etc); makes messy wiring (usually outside the existing harness), and does nothing to improve the interconnects involved (plugs/sockets, switches and the like).

The Startus Interruptus kit from MPH or other suppliers, or the simple fix documented elsewhere here, works. It is as simple as that. This solution is not a "fix", it is an alternative that gets rid of the original problem (which has been plaguing Moto Guzzi for decades) of too many joins, too small a csa of wire, and a tortuous path between source and end, causing problems later in the life of a machine (rarely at birth or infancy). This is an engineering solution that is safe and does what it says it does. No ifs, no buts.

The other cause of "Startus Interruptus" is a dying battery (or maybe it's already dead). This causes the exact same symptoms as the problem mentioned here. How do you know your battery is dying? Go get it checked by a battery expert. Putting a multimeter on the battery will tell you the float voltage. It will not tell you if it has capacity to start your bike.

I'm leaving, now (call it running away) that I've chucked some rocks!
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not-fishing
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:39 pm

Kiwi_Roy wrote:
I would encourage you to read my thread on the topic, I probably haven't explained myself very well but if you have a question I will elaborate.
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You mean I actually have to think?  

Rats!

I just want to buy the part and stick it on --- because I'm easily confused.

OK, after reading your post referenced, I see I must replace the tiny red wire from the starter relay to the solenoid with a slightly less tiny red for those who follow the KISS principal   wire and things will be better.

Mark
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:27 pm

not-fishing wrote:
Kiwi_Roy wrote:
I would encourage you to read my thread on the topic, I probably haven't explained myself very well but if you have a question I will elaborate.
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You mean I actually have to think?  

Rats!

I just want to buy the part and stick it on --- because I'm easily confused.

OK, after reading your post referenced, I see I must replace the tiny red wire from the starter relay to the solenoid with a slightly less tiny red for those who follow the KISS principal   wire and things will be better.

Mark
Yes, if you look at the picture in the Cantaloop posted you can clearly see the red wire is somewhat smaller
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The Green and the Red wire carry the same current. The other 2 wires on the relay can be tiny because there's only about 100 milliamps in them.
But first of all test the Green/Orange to make sure it is always powered even with the key Off and get back to us.
The schematic shows it powered from always alive 20 Amp fuse C which means the MPH kit will do nothing for it but I have learned to take the Guzzi schematics with a grain of salt.


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In 2008 when the 8 Valve GRiSO came out Luigi completely changed the wiring adding an extra relay and fed the relays from the ignition switch AGAIN proving he still hasn't figured out what's wrong with the starter, thats where MPH mods come into play, they disregard the ignition switch feed and put it straight off the battery where it belongs.
In other words MPH cuts the yellow wire and feeds it from a new fuse at the battery, this is done between the Male plug and Female socket, simple as that.
The GRiSO is just one of many models that suffer from this error.

I may be completely wrong but I have a theory the factory think the starter solenoid draws about 10 Amps which would be fine passing through all the spaghetti wiring and the ignition switch, if only they drew the starter solenoid correctly they might realize their error and save untold Guzzis from becoming trailer queens.
Rant over.
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Cantaloop
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:22 am

I just came back from a track day in Oschersleben which is located in the eastern part of Germany. And it was fu..ing hot - more than 36 degrees celsius. And the GRiSO did not crank again when I wanted to do my second turn. Before I went to Oschersleben I cut the yellow/orange wire and connected it directly to the battery. And nothing happened. I tried to figure out - no power on the solenoid wire. So I connected the divorced wires again, and the GRiSO cranked. I did not have time to try other solutions. So I decided to teke the GRiSO with me to the race track. Battery power on the display was 12,7 when it did not crank. I can hear a quiet click, when pushing the start button. But nothing happens. Then I parked the black bitch in the shadow under the tent. And it cranked, no matter at which temperature. I changed the battery twice. I checked all fuses. I am really helpless and frustrated now. I hate non-reliable motorcycles. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It is a 2006 GRiSO, mileage is low: 13000km

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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:30 am

Cantaloop wrote:
Battery power on the display was 12,7 when it did not crank. I can hear a quiet click, when pushing the start button. But nothing happens. Then I parked the black bitch in the shadow under the tent. And it cranked, no matter at which temperature.  

It is a 2006 GRiSO, mileage is low: 13000km

I'm not quite sure if you have changed the wire from the relay to solenoid or not.
The original wire is far too small (I'm guessing 0.5 mm2) and has too much Voltage drop to pull the solenoid into place, hence the quiet click. It must be so critical that the extra resistance due to the heat just puts it over the top.
I suggest you replace the wire with at least 1.5 mm2 (Nth America 16 AWG)
I replaced mine (same year bike) with an 18 AWG (~ 1.0 mm2) it now operates the solenoid 3 x faster than before.

Wardest suggested providing a better spade connector at the solenoid connection, I think he has a valid point.
wardest wrote:
Regarding “Startus Interuptus”
I was inspecting the spade connector to the starter solenoid . The female connector appears to have been anealled as it quite soft and only requires the lightest finger touch to slide it off.
Has anyone narrowed the starting issue with the quality of connection at the starter solenoid spade connector?
 He used the spade connector intended for an oven element, IMHO this is a good idea.

Another tip, leave a loop in the relay to solenoid wire long enough to reach the battery positive terminal. If it doesn't crank you can bare the insulation and slap it on the terminal, almost guaranteed to crank that way and will prove it's not the starter itself.

Note: This fix is specific to the 4 valve motor with the Start Relay powered directly from a fuse, the 8 valve has the Start Relay powered through the ignition switch. I think Luigi must have put a fatter wire in these, anyone care to check?

ALWAYS apply some grease to the battery terminals after you scrape them clean, if I had a $ for every battery that could have been saved from scrap by a little Vaseline I would be a billionaire.
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psalwasser
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:03 am

fwiw: my 07 started intermittently and before I bought or wired anything. i pulled the plastic cover over the starter and disconnected the batt cables at the batt, disconnected the both leads at the starter and found them a little scaly/whitish/oxidized. cleaned them with sandpaper and dremel and lubed them with strong arm oil, reattached them. I used a longer allen screw instead of the attachement for the plastic cover. I wont be reinstalling that. I will get a rubber protector for the lead. then I put brake cleaner on the sidestand and clutch interlock dinger, blew air on them:repeated, then lubed them with strong arm oil and worked them. reattached batt and my bike started right off in 35 degree farenheit with the 15-50 summer oil. I have read the threads but didnt read about the contacts, or couldnt readily find, the contact on the actual starter addressed. hope this helps, becasue I went through this on a 90 cali3 - the wiring stuff and still wasnt getting good results. gets back to my thing: either I screwed it up by modifiying it or I didnt do some basic maintenance. hope this can help someone.
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ecs
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:40 pm

psalwasser wrote:
fwiw: my 07 started intermittently and before I bought or wired anything.  i pulled the plastic cover over the starter and disconnected the batt cables at the batt, disconnected the both  leads at the starter and found them a little scaly/whitish/oxidized. cleaned them with sandpaper and dremel and lubed them with strong arm oil, reattached them.

I agree with this, about 7 years ago, I was having these issues on my then relatively new Tenni getting stranded a few times.  Pete suggested I checked the starter earth but it looked pristine and I did not take it off to check  Evil or Very Mad.  

Over the next few weeks/months with intermittent strandings,I took apart and reattached every connection, replaced every bulb and relay with no result. it was not solved until I took the starter earth off and found it had green gunk under it. Cleaned it up and added a copper washer.  From them on, not a problem.
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avgpetro
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:59 am

Off topic, still...

psalwasser wrote:
...with the 15-50 summer oil. ...

Should be 10w60 no mutter the season
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:06 pm

Guys, there is no reason to put up with Startus Interrupts

Find the bloody start relay, make sure the main relay contact is alive with the key turned OFF
Make sure it has a decent size wire leading from the relay to the starter solenoid terminated with a decent tight spade connector. for good measure this wire can be routed past the battery positive so at a pinch you can always slap it on the battery eliminating Luigis crappy wiring

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The starter solenoid should Never be fed through the ignition switch
Take a look at this 2006, the start relay (3) is fed directly from fuse C, it doesn't go anywhere near the switch that's good but the trouble is they skimped on the wire size, it should be at least 18 gauge all the way from the battery to the solenoid
Now to the starter, what the hell is that, how does that work cause I haven't a clue,
They can't draw a simple starter solenoid and its two coils, so how are you supposed to figure it out?

My first exposure to Guzzi was a 2001 VII Sport, it never ever had trouble cranking, it had lots of other electrical issues but that wasn't one of them.
I was wondering what all the talk about Startus Interrupts was about, my starter was so reliable I drew it out.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] If you read nothing else read Note 1
Note how there are two coils in the solenoid, every big twin Guzzi is made that way and I suspect the V7s as well.
I started investigating the problems owners were having with their starters, almost all without failure have the start relay fed through the ignition switch, not only does the ignition switch have some pretty wimpy wires it also has weak contacts and other connectors.

The factory get away with this while the bike is new and everything is pristine but I bet more than a few fail within site of the factory gate.
There is no excuse for the wimpy wiring I 'm sure more than one starter manufacturer has explained to the designers how a starter works.
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JohnA
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:35 am

Mine failed on my 2014 in year 2. I put in the startus interrupts fix from MPH and that fixed it for a year and then periodically I would blow a 15 amp fuse in the startus interruptus harness. Pete advised a 20 amp fuse and I’ve been good ever since, probably 2 years.
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus   GRiSO 1100, My 2006 with startus interruptus Icon_minitime1Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:44 am

Yes, a 20 Amp fuse is more appropriate.
If you were to take a multimeter and measure the current it will say ~10 Amps, so 15 would seem to be adequate but in fact your meter is far too slow to tell the real story, if it were quick enough it would probably say 30 Amps.

Guzzi don't know how the starter works or they would wire it properly.
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