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 How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?

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jongood
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PostSubject: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Sat May 25, 2019 2:56 am

Ive looked at various videos and have got the rocker cover off but how do I tell whether my cambox has been rollerised?

Its been posted that there are images on here but I'm new to Guzzis and don t really know what to look for, is it the top of the lifter?

Thanks

Jon

Only intended to buy a stopgap - foolishly perhaps.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Sat May 25, 2019 3:11 am

Pop a valve cover.

Easy.

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jongood
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Sat May 25, 2019 3:29 am

beetle wrote:
Pop a valve cover.

Easy.

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Thanks.

So if I can see the sleeves projecting out of the casing Ive got flat tappets? my exhaust one projects about 2mm more than the inlet side and the tappets gaps are .50 inlet and .25 exhaust.

Thanks for all the help guys


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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Sat May 25, 2019 3:42 am

Umm? How far anything is 'Projecting' out of the casting will depend on where in the cycle the motor is if you look.

It should be clear from the pics above that the two operating systems are clearly, visibly different. If you have a *Thin* tube with a short rod poking out of it as in the top pic? It's a flattie.

If you have a bigger bore for the tappet and the tappet itself has a sort of *Bridge* with a tower on top like the second pic? It's a roller tappet.

Not being rude but how much do you understand about the four stroke internal combustion engine and how it works?

Pete
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jongood
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Sat May 25, 2019 4:21 am

Pete Roper wrote:
Umm? How far anything is 'Projecting' out of the casting will depend on where in the cycle the motor is if you look.

It should be clear from the pics above that the two operating systems are clearly, visibly different. If you have a *Thin* tube with a short rod poking out of it as in the top pic? It's a flattie.

If you have a bigger bore for the tappet and the tappet itself has a sort of *Bridge* with a tower on top like the second pic? It's a roller tappet.

Not being rude but how much do you understand about the four stroke internal combustion engine and how it works?

Pete

None taken mate, I just havent seen an arrangement quite like this before, I hadn't realised that the sleeves moves, I incorrrectly assumed that the follower/pushrod moved inside the sleeve.

I definitely have the flattie. Going by the sequence of valve operation I'm pretty certain I was round about tdc (although not sure where I find the marks) but I was defo on compression and both rockers were slack is it logical to assume that the huge valve clearance is an indication of wear?
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jongood
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Sat May 25, 2019 4:24 am

ps I'm trying not to dismantle any more than I have to because I bought it from a dealer less than 3 weeks ago so possibly could reject it as long as its not too obvious Ive been fiddling with it.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Sat May 25, 2019 5:04 am

OK. There are no obvious or easy tell-tales for TDC. Why? Because for all everyday purposes TDC is irrelevant.

Yes, when setting the valve lash you need the piston to be *Close* to TDC compression but as long as the tappets are both on the base circle of the cam that's all that's needed. You can achieve that by pulling a rocker cover off, turning the crank with a 24mm socket on the nut on the front and then after taking the plugs out using something like a like drinking straw through the plug hole to determine when the piston is close to TDC.

Once you have that on the compression stroke you measure the valve lash. If your engine has a shitload of valve lash, (It should be 4 thou inlet and 6 thou exhaust.) on any rocker the chances are, unless it was last serviced by a moron, the tappets are fucked. If the clearances are super-wide on even one valve it must of been rattling like a bastard and been unwilling to run at all when cold. Did you not have suspicions?

Look, you're not the first and won't be the last to be rogered up the blurter by an ignorant/unscrupulous shop. Roll yer shoulders in, buy a kit and fix it. No point in crying over spilt milk!

Pete
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GuzziSteve
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Sat May 25, 2019 6:56 am

Pretty easy Flatties have a rod, Rollers have a FORK for a pushrod.
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jongood
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Sat May 25, 2019 12:35 pm

The real irony is that I was looking fora kettle but didnt want to rush in and buy a dog so I bought this POS as a stopgap while I researched - caveat emptor or what!

Anyway I am where I am so it looks like I need kit C? - 09 GRiSO no punchmark. Any recommendations where i get one?

I cant see one in Uk but Ive seen these: ( forum won't let me post links FFS)

one at TLM for  1500 euros

or one at AF1 for  800USD

But the dutch one has head gaskets and the US one doesnt??
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Sat May 25, 2019 2:38 pm

No, the pic on the AF1 website just doesn't show them.

Personally as you're in the UK I'd buy a 'B' kit and add the other bits you need from TLM. A B kit is €500 then you add the valve guide oil seals, shims, manifold gaskets and only the head gaskets you need. It'll work out a lot cheaper than buying the 'C' kit but you need to determine which head gaskets you need prior to purchasing the gaskets.

Pete
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jongood
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Sat May 25, 2019 11:31 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
No, the pic on the AF1 website just doesn't show them.

Personally as you're in the UK I'd buy a 'B' kit and add the other bits you need from TLM. A B kit is €500 then you add the valve guide oil seals, shims, manifold gaskets and only the head gaskets you need. It'll work out a lot cheaper than buying the 'C' kit but you need to determine which head gaskets you need prior to purchasing the gaskets.

Pete

Thanks again but where are you finding a B kit for 500euros? the only B kit I can see is 800, it says its for a stelvio but are they the same?

Is there a way to tell whether engine damage has already occured, the engine sounds basically alright just a bit tappety and it pops ocassionally on the overun.

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Sat May 25, 2019 11:36 pm

Sorry, my mistake, the €500 Figure was my price. Since you're in the EU you'll be paying VAT or whatever so yes €808 seems to be the going rate. Apologies.

Yes, the way you can find out is by pulling the camboxes but believe me, they all fail and there is no such thing as 'Acceptable wear'. I know it's a bitter pill to have to swallow but it's the truth. There is no way round it.


Pete
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jongood
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Tue May 28, 2019 8:10 am

Some of the guys on guzziriders forum recommended calling Twiggers in Loughborough. It was well worth it, very helpful and straight to the point. They ve currently got 6 8 valves in there waiting for conversion so it must be well known in the trade.

He did tell me that as long as it has a reasonable service history MG are supplying the parts FOC but you also need to be ready for the possibility of big end shells and oil pump and could be more. his guestimate for my part of the bill was £850.

So after after checking my facts with citizens advice Ive reluctantly gone down the reject route and fingers are crossed. although tbf its a shame because I really like the bike.

Thanks for all your help so far.
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tvboy
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Thu May 30, 2019 3:53 pm

Just a heads up.. I happened to chat with Lisa at the Piaggio office in Los Angeles last night. The topic of roller tappets came up and she told me the warranty campaign for the rollers has ended.
Don't be surprised if you want to get it done under warranty and Piaggio says no.
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jongood
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:00 pm

So the dealer won't accept that its faulty because it still runs. They are offering me an exchange and promising to be a bit flexible on the deal.

The trouble with this is I really like the GRiSO and even though they are a large dealer with lots of bikes nothing is lighting my fire, and whatever I got I'm probably losing £1000 on it straight away for something I don't really want.

But if I decide to reject that offer and get the GRiSO sorted and document the evidence what grounds have I got to go after them for recompense?

The other risk to this is that the damage is worse than thought and the engine is past the point of economic repair.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:17 pm

You won't know how bad the damage is until you pull a cambox and look. The worse the damage, the greater the risk of further damage having been done to the bottom end.

Pulling the LH cambox takes 15 minutes, pulling the RH one probably five minutes longer. Unfortunately there is no magic wand that can be waved or pair of x-ray specs that can be put on to see through metal.

The fact it still runs shouldn't be the decider! There are lots of bikes that will 'Run' when they are totally fucked for crying out loud! Sounds like they are hanging you out to dry. Sound like a pack of arseholes.

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jongood
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:03 am

I agree totally with the sentiment, it would be lovely to have a look but I'm reluctant to dismantle it because the more I fiddle with it the more chance they ve got to duck their liability because I'm just Joe Public. They re already getting a bit sniffy about me taking the rocker covers off.

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jongood
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:23 pm

Ive looked and looked and looked at the dealers stock and can't find anything that is remotely interesting to me.

So I'm back to thinking about what I could do with the GRiSO if I keep it.

Talking to Twiggers getting the camboxes swapped by them would cost @£800, I'm happy enough with that but the parts are on backorder and will be at least a month and then I'm guessing another couple of weeks to get them done.

To buy the proper kit online looks to be 1500 euros.

I'm then looking on Bike Trader etc and there are a few 8v's on there none of which make any mention of the rollers so I'm guessing they re not done and they must be running reasonably OK.

Which got me to thinking, why does nobody just change the followers? Looking at Pete Ropers video it looks like less than a days work. At 1000 miles pa it would surely last me a few years.

Btw twiggers are saying the worst they ve seen tappets is 6mm, mine are 0.5mm
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:22 am

Hi Jon, why everyone hasn't done question is tricky:
1.Bikes can ride fine with failing tappets even as gaps get massive; some (mine) had replacement 'extra strong Flats' which failed again
2. dealers and others have just adjusted tappets, hidden the issue or said it 'only affects some bikes'
2. some owners say their bikes are OK (guy down the road from me says his is fine cos he doesn't do short trips - then admitted he doesn't use it much !)
3. many owners haven't done many miles, haven't pulled the followers & use dealers who don't want to check
4. many owners wouldn't accept £2k plus a month in dealers OR £1000 and DIY given the vagueness of the problem in the marketplace.
5. It only affects 8Vs in a couple years window so factory built rollerised ones are fine

I did mine DIY 2 years ago (kit cost €1100 & incl shims & cylinder gasket) at the point clearances suddenly went to 'drive a bus through' territory. There's some risk but I think you'd be fine buying & fixing the one you had BUT the dealer (clearly in point 2. mode) should chip in something - or some other unlucky punter will get it ! OR buy a newer one with rollers from factory. Paul

Paul

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:24 am

Fucking, fucking, fuck.

Look. You can fool yourself that your flat tappet shitter is the only one that will never break

Alternatively you can just accept that it's a turd and fix it.

Oh! There is another option. You on-sell it to the next mug and gloat your way to financial satisfaction at the expense of some other poor mug.

Make your choice. Knock yerself out! If you take the honourable route people will fall over themselves to help you.

If you go the other way? Well, we'll know you're a shitbag.

Just sayin'

Pete
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jongood
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:16 am

Pete Roper wrote:
Fucking, fucking, fuck.

Look. You can fool yourself that your flat tappet shitter is the only one that will never break

Alternatively you can just accept that it's a turd and fix it.

Oh! There is another option. You on-sell it to the next mug and gloat your way to financial satisfaction at the expense of some other poor mug.

Make your choice. Knock yerself out! If you take the honourable route people will fall over themselves to help you.

If you go the other way? Well, we'll know you're a shitbag.

Just sayin'

Pete
NICE!!!!

I can see nothing wrong with exploring the options and for what its worth, I ve never considered selling it to somebody else in its current state.

So Up yours!!
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Grisonut
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:29 pm

Pete...
The force is strong with this one. lol
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:18 pm

Having just had to deal, (Again!) with the fallout from another bike that had been 'Passed on' by its PO to a new one when it was well past the point of still working right I get shitty when it appears people are looking to escape from a shitty situation at the expense of others.

Look, this may not be Jongood's intention at all and perhaps I was hasty so I apologise but do understand in these sort of events it quite often end up with me copping shit from the new owner as if it's my fault! I'm over it!

Also there is the whole "Maybe it won't happen to mine.", "It sounds OK so there's nothing wrong with it.", "Perhaps if I only ride it a little and do XYZ to it it'll hold together." argument which is insane wishful thinking. I've seen the inside of hundreds, literally hundreds of 8V's now and THEY ALL FAIL! There is no 'Get out of gaol free' card and not addressing the problem as soon as possible greatly increases the chance of further issues down the track. Sacrificing an engine on a whim is just insane as well as being stupidly wasteful.

Anyway, sorry Jongood. I spoke hastily. Please accept my apologies.

Pete
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jongood
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:46 pm

No worries

I still do have the opportunity to force the bike shop to have it back but I'm just exploring the cost of keeping it first. Even though I bought it as a stopgap and its got a major problem I can't help but liking it more and more each time I look at it. Sad or what!

Jon
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bahamazoo
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PostSubject: Re: How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised?   How do you tell whether a head has been rollerised? Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:58 pm

we're all sad in that case!!
they are great bikes, they do have some Italian personality, along with the odd Italian fail....
but in the end, great beasts and well worth saving Thumbs Up
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