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 Rollerised ??

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rick pope
Kel
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Rolf Halvorsen
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Mariner92
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PostSubject: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:40 am

Hi,
Finally got time to pull a cover off today, and took a few pics to try and identify if she's been done or not.
Would be grateful if anyone could shed light on the subject.
Cheers
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kindoy2
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:29 am

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Mariner92
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:01 am

Many thanks kindoy2,Comparing the pics, although I didn't get the best angle, I reckon mine has not been rollerised yet.
As I'm due a knee replacement soon, I doubt I'll be riding this year, so she'll be laid up anyway, but obviously as soon as possible I'll get it done.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:49 am


Nope. They're flat tappets.





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Mariner92
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:59 am

Any idea which kit I would need from those pics please ?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:46 pm

What year is it? It'll either be a 'B' or a 'C' kit but to know which look at the side of the heads that face into the valley of the motor. If there is a drill mark in the paint, (Looks like a silver dot.) adjacent to the manufacturing date stamp, (Looks like a small 'Sun'.) then you need a 'B' kit. If the paint is unmarked? You need a 'C' kit or a 'B' kit and the parts to turn it into a 'C' kit.

How many miles on your bike?

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Mariner92
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:53 pm

11k Pete.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:08 pm

11k will be pushing the friendship. I wouldn't ride it again until it's done. At the same time drop the sump and replace the spacer gasket and if it hasn't already been done you'll need to grease/replace the swingarm bearings and shock linkage bearings.

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Mariner92
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:23 pm

Yes, as I mentioned above, I'm having a knee replacement very soon, so won't be riding for most of this season, but once I'm recovering I'll source the parts and crack on with it.
Would it be practical to get the kit via yourself Pete, if that's OK?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:47 pm

Well I can certainly order you one but you'll still have to cope with all the bloody stupid Brexit inspired red tape and delays because it will be coming out of Europe.

Find out whether you have the drill mark in the paint on the head so I know what to order and I'll price it up. You don't have to lift the tank to do that. Just remove a 'Wing' and have a squizz down the inner face of the head with a torch.

If your bike is a 2008-9 it will need a 'C' kit and the heads will need to come off. The *Grey* year is 2010 as the changes that meant that the head no longer needs to be removed occurred at some non-defined point in that year and the only way you can tell is by the drill mark in the paint.
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Mariner92
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:56 pm

Bike is 2011, engine no. A8012819 if that helps.
I'll check for the dot this week.
Thanks for your help fella 👍
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:12 pm

Can't be a 2011 build as it has the long plug tube unless it was a very early 2011? Anyway, if it is that's very good as it's almost certainly a 'B' kit bike which is the cheapest and easiest of the lot to fit! cheers
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Mariner92
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:14 pm

Music to my ears !! 👂😃
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Rolf Halvorsen
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:40 am

Pete Roper wrote:
11k will be pushing the friendship. I wouldn't ride it again until it's done. At the same time drop the sump and replace the spacer gasket and if it hasn't already been done you'll need to grease/replace the swingarm bearings and shock linkage bearings.

Pete

Why replace the original gasket with a thick gasket - if its not leaking?

(I have bought the thick version, and will use it next time when/if the bottom needs to come of.)

Rolf
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:31 am

It's a Schroedingers Cats problem Rolf....it might be OK OR it might be failing (but pressure sensor hasn't detected it yet).....I changed mine & the original was fine
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Rolf Halvorsen
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:59 am

paulbrice wrote:
It's a Schroedingers Cats problem Rolf....it might be OK OR it might be failing (but pressure sensor hasn't detected it yet).....I changed mine & the original was fine

The word WHY is the most important word in my technical world.

So, what has the gasket thickness to do with the pressure sensor?

Rolf
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:22 am

Rolf Halvorsen wrote:
paulbrice wrote:
It's a Schroedingers Cats problem Rolf....it might be OK OR it might be failing (but pressure sensor hasn't detected it yet).....I changed mine & the original was fine

The word WHY is the most important word in my technical world.

So, what has the gasket thickness to do with the pressure sensor?

Rolf

The potential leak is internal from a high pressure oilway going through the spacer and the gasket.
The original thin gasket did not conform to the surfaces well so it would blow out in that area and the oil pressure will disappear. The later gasket is thicker, stronger and cures the weakness

The oil pressure sensor is known to fail every now and then.

So if you get a red light oil pressure warning it could be the sensor or or failure of the spacer gasket - both are cheap and fairly simple to replace. But, obviously, if the gasket has gone there is risk of damage to the engine.

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:38 am

The fact is that the pressure switch only operates, (Goes closed.) at a ridiculously low pressure. The original, shitty, cheap, OE gasket can, and does blow out and there may still be enough pressure to lift the contacts on the switch but not enough to ensure the oil can wedge.

Why does the thicker gasket cure the problem? The mating surface, especially around the forward main delivery gallery, is very thin. The lack of compressibility of the original means it is prone to failure. The thicker, aftermarket, gaskets simply seem to clamp and form better than the shitty original. Once you fondle one, (lovingly, with just a hint of moistening of the nethers.) you'll see why they're a better item for the task!

Bottom line? I think they're a better option and I haven't had a bike run it's big ends after the substitution has been made.

Having said that there are many bikes that never seen to have experienced the issue. I've lost two sets of big ends in two bikes to the problem though and my shitty old Stelvio also seemed to be heading that way when it was rollerised. I've also found the problem on more than an *Average* number of other bikes since we instituted the mandatory replacement of the shit gasket when rollerising 8V's. Essentially I think it is a wise issue to address. I could of course be utterly wrong but that's the individual's choice. Given the cheapness and low cost of the *Fix* and the fact I'm not trying to sell you anything I'd think that there are no real reasons to doubt my motives.....

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Rolf Halvorsen
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:27 am

Pete Roper wrote:
The fact is that the pressure switch only operates, (Goes closed.) at a ridiculously low pressure. The original, shitty, cheap, OE gasket can, and does blow out and there may still be enough pressure to lift the contacts on the switch but not enough to ensure the oil can wedge.

Why does the thicker gasket cure the problem? The mating surface, especially around the forward main delivery gallery, is very thin. The lack of compressibility of the original means it is prone to failure. The thicker, aftermarket, gaskets simply seem to clamp and form better than the shitty original. Once you fondle one, (lovingly, with just a hint of moistening of the nethers.) you'll see why they're a better item for the task!

Bottom line? I think they're a better option and I haven't had a bike run it's big ends after the substitution has been made.

Having said that there are many bikes that never seen to have experienced the issue. I've lost two sets of big ends in two bikes to the problem though and my shitty old Stelvio also seemed to be heading that way when it was rollerised. I've also found the problem on more than an *Average* number of other bikes since we instituted the mandatory replacement of the shit gasket when rollerising 8V's. Essentially I think it is a wise issue to address. I could of course be utterly wrong but that's the individual's choice. Given the cheapness and low cost of the *Fix* and the fact I'm not trying to sell you anything I'd think that there are no real reasons to doubt my motives.....

Pete

I have both gaskets here. The old has a thickness of abouth 0,45mm - and the new "thick" one has about the double 0,9mm.
I put the thick one over the thin one - and cannot see that there is any differences except the thickness.

Tonti models has used the original thin gaskets since 1966 (or so). I have not heard of many oil pressure causing engine missing oil. I agree that the oil preasure switch open on a very low value. If the original thin gasket was a big problem - we should have heard lots of problems around this for many years now. The oil pressure I assume is about the same on all old and new models.

Said this, I will use the thick gasket next time. But I will probably not change the gasket - to reduce the potential risk, which I think is very low.

Another area of concern is the paper quality. If the paper is too loose (soft) - then we could exspect more problems than a paper quality that would keep its form under pressure.
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Kel
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:29 am

Pete, please do not give up in frustration and go off on horses to water etc. There are many of us that are enlightened by your explanations.

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:09 pm

I'm not going to 'Go off' at anyone but I would ask the question of what would be my motive for inventing a problem that doesn't exist?

One of the reasons the gasket is more prone to blowing out on the CARC models is that the main delivery gallery is larger than on earlier models and there is a lot less clamping area for the gasket. The stock gasket quality, which is not the same as the gaskets used on the older models, is also awful.

As I think I said before it doesn't happen to all of them BUT, it does happen often enough to make me think the issue is worth addressing. That is why I advise it be done. The two gaskets cost very little. A set of big end sells is considerably more expensive and torching your crank very much more expensive! They are risks I'd rather not take.

As to there not being stories circulating about failures? This is not strictly true. Only a few months ago someone asked what might be the cause for problems on three Stelvios that some bloke had sitting in his shop that he'd replaced the oil pumps on but they still had low oil pressure problems. I suggested checking and replacing the gasket and Lo and behold the problem went away! There are plenty of reports of, especially 8V's, with oil pressure problems, it just seems that nobody looks to the easy solution and often plunge straight in to the oil pump or OPRV! Both of which are pretty damn reliable.

Another case was a few years ago when a shop in I think the UK told a customer that it could take "Up to five minutes" for oil to reach the top end of the motor due to the length of the galleries in the 8V and that it was very important that the oil lines to the head "Not be kinked" to hinder flow! Another staggering show of ignorance as any plain bearing run for even a short time without oil pressure will fail! Five minutes is an impossibly long time for a 'Dry' bearing and the hoses to the head on the 8V are utterly irrelevant to lubrication. They simply provide oil for the cooling circuit!
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:11 pm

Rolf Halvorsen wrote:

I have both gaskets here. The old has a thickness of abouth 0,45mm - and the new "thick" one has about the double 0,9mm.
I put the thick one over the thin one - and cannot see that there is any differences except the thickness.


Yes, that is the point. Rolling Eyes



Quote :


Tonti models has used the original thin gaskets since 1966 (or so). I have not heard of many oil pressure causing engine missing oil. I agree that the oil preasure switch open on a very low value. If the original thin gasket was a big problem - we should have heard lots of problems around this for many years now. The oil pressure I assume is about the same on all old and new models.



Well, we're not talking about the old Tonti big blocks, are we? The sump is different on these engines.



Quote :


Said this, I will use the thick gasket next time. But I will probably not change the gasket  - to reduce the potential risk, which I think is very low.

Another area of concern is the paper quality. If the paper is too loose (soft) - then we could exspect more problems than a paper quality that would keep its form under pressure.




There are several members of this forum that this has happened too. You have been told. Ignore it at your peril.





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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:36 pm

Thank you everybody for your arguments. I have not yest opened a CARC engine and seen the differences versus the old Tonti's.

I will bear in mind your oppinion - and maybee I will be influenced.

But anyway - I am happy with your explanations why one should change to the thicker gasket.

Drive safely.

Rolf
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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:11 pm

Rolf, when you do drop the sump spacer all will become clear. It's not just the thickness of the gasket it's its compressibility too. The original gasket simply doesn't have enough *Give* in it. The clamping force applied is dependent on only two 6mm bolts and the wall of the casting around the main gallery is very thin. When the gasket blows out it almost invariably starts at the point furthest away from the clamping screw at the thinnest part of the casting. It's just a combination of poor material and marginal clamping force.

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And here are the shells out of my *New* engine, the 2012 one I'd installed after the flat tappet fiasco killed my first one. Because it was a 'Factory' roller motor I neglected to do the spacer gasket. This was the result.

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It was still running but was very noisy while warming up and towards the end got very *Knocky* at idle but once the crank speed got above about 2,500 it quietened down. That wouldn't have lasted! One thing that really astonished me was how much power it was sapping. A new set of shells and it felt like it had gained 10 horsepower!

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PostSubject: Re: Rollerised ??   Rollerised ?? Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:52 pm

To clarify, I was referring to the old expression - you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

I pulled my sump as a precautionary simply because of the data provided thru this site. I didn't bother to snap a pic but wish I had. The old gasket already had a crack in it so it was just a matter of time till either blow out or at least significant leakage. A very rewarding half hour task with new thick gasket, check of internal fasteners and an oil change.
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