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 GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?

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Mi_ka
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PostSubject: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Thu May 21, 2020 10:53 pm

The 850 understroked version is surely less powerful but also geared 7-8% lower so how much difference can one expect on twisty mountain roads with no highway or fast open roads use?

You see, if I make it ever into getting a GRiSO, it seems it will be a 850 and that one just barely.
And I do not dream on long trips on open roads whatsoever nor drag racing anyone at the scarse traffic lights over here.
So a top speed of 190 instead of 206 km/h is just irrelevant and a crusing speed of 135km/h will cut it just fine. I dream of maybe doing 200-300km rides once a month on mountain roads and the 850 is pretty lower geared which should suit me fine given I never labor engines, could never own an HD or a Falcone for that matter.

So does anyone have any serious experience over the 850 vs the 1100?
Also, does anyone have a complete list of what mechanical is different between these two?

For the use I dream of an intoxicating desmo sounding Monster 800 could be better and more affordable but the GRiSO is The Bike, not a bike and I would love to own one till gasoline or my blood runs dry.
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Mi_ka
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Sat May 23, 2020 11:37 pm

no one?

how about a mountain twisties comparo of the GRiSO 850 to the Monster 800/900?
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GUZ21
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Mon May 25, 2020 12:55 am

I have no experience of an 850 GRiSO, but recently borrowed an 850 Breva. I was stunned by how smooth the motor was compared to most 1100s I've ridden. Rolls Royce smooth. Perhaps it was just that particular bike. It had lots of kms on it. But a GRiSO that runs like that, presumably similar vintage 850, would be a gem. And more than enough power.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Mon May 25, 2020 8:34 am

I'm obviously nutty about all Grisos but I do have a soft spot for the 850's.

The ideal pushrod GRiSO would use the Bellagio 940 motor but the TB's off an 1100. Twin plugged with a map by Mark it would be a scream! A twin plugged 850 would be the next best thing. Better probably due to the lower gearing. It would be hard to stop grinnin'
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Mi_ka
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Wed May 27, 2020 10:21 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
I'm obviously nutty about all Grisos but I do have a soft spot for the 850's.

The ideal pushrod GRiSO would use the Bellagio 940 motor but the TB's off an 1100. Twin plugged with a map by Mark it would be a scream! A twin plugged 850 would be the next best thing. Better probably due to the lower gearing. It would be hard to stop grinnin'

Interesting!
Besides the obvious benefits of proper mapping to any of these engines,
do the twin plugs cause such a difference on the 850?

Since I have lost touch with most things two wheeled over the last years, can you point me into the proper reading directions? cyclops
1. 850 twin plug mod (just coils & plugs or more?)
2. Bellagio engine differences from the 850/1100/1200 2V engines.

Also, do you feel an oil cooler can really be ommited on the 850?
I guess more frequent oil changes but if flogging in hot weather, can there be cooling issues?
I like the clean looks and if you feel it needs the cooler that would be a minus mark for me.

I was looking around the parts list and I understand that the 850 vs the 1100, on the block side only the crankshaft is different, even the camshaft along the pushrods are the same with the 1100 - then the rods and piston/cylinder asseblies differ but not the heads, if I am not mistaken, which means same length valve train so same dimensions for the block-cylinder assembly, right? I guess only taller rods along the pistons and crankshaft make all the difference if we do not count paint as a difference?
Just curious.
Funny they have drawn the 850 cylinder shorter with 6 cooling fins instead of 9, as I see on the photos for both the 1100 and the 850.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Thu May 28, 2020 5:11 am

Mi_ka wrote:
Interesting!
Besides the obvious benefits of proper mapping to any of these engines,
do the twin plugs cause such a difference on the 850?

Yes, with a good map it fattens up the bottom end and midrange appreciably.

Quote :
Since I have lost touch with most things two wheeled over the last years, can you point me into the proper reading directions? cyclops
1. 850 twin plug mod (just coils & plugs or more?)
2. Bellagio engine differences from the 850/1100/1200 2V engines.

Coils, plugs, extra plug leads and of course a map with a different spark advance table.

As for the Bellagio motor it's got a slightly shorter stroke, (only a mm or so, maybe less?) and a wider bore and, strangely, uses smaller throttlebodies as used on the Tonti California series of bikes which means that the Bellagio have a 'Stand Alone' tuning procedure like no other CARC bike. Despite this it is a wonderful rev-hound, strange for a 'Cruiser'. Even stranger is that they never offered it in the US where I think they would of been very popular! scratch

Quote :
Also, do you feel an oil cooler can really be ommited on the 850?
I guess more frequent oil changes but if flogging in hot weather, can there be cooling issues?
I like the clean looks and if you feel it needs the cooler that would be a minus mark for me.

To be honest as long as it's mapped correctly I really don't think it likely that any of the pushrod models need an oil cooler. There were plenty of earlier pushrod 1100's with Carburettors that were jetted stupidly lean for emissions purposes and they didn't need coolers and never suffered from overheating or lubrication issues. I honestly tend to think that apart from the Hi-Cams, both old and new, the oil cooler is a bit of an affectation put on mainly as bling. Apart from in really hot weather I have to wonder how often the thermostat actually opens? I know from previous experience with my old SP1000 which had an oil temperature gauge plumbed into the sump that the only times that ever reached worrying oil temperatures was in 40+*C weather, in traffic with no cooling air flow and with cylinders that were heavily shrouded by fairings! Even then as soon as my speed returned to >60kph for more than a couple of minutes the temperature would plunge to 110-120*C which is pretty much ideal!

The fact that the 850 doesn't have a cooler has, I think, more to do with its target market of 'Cheaper than an 1100' than any lack of need.

Quote :
I was looking around the parts list and I understand that the 850 vs the 1100, on the block side only the crankshaft is different, even the camshaft along the pushrods are the same with the 1100 - then the rods and piston/cylinder asseblies differ but not the heads, if I am not mistaken, which means same length valve train so same dimensions for the block-cylinder assembly, right? I guess only taller rods along the pistons and crankshaft make all the difference if we do not count paint as a difference?
Just curious.
Funny they have drawn the 850 cylinder shorter with 6 cooling fins instead of 9, as I see on the photos for both the 1100 and the 850.

In all honesty I haven't had an 850 down that far. I know the stroke is much shorter but whether the rods are different I'm not sure? It could simply be that the deck height, (The difference in height from the gudgeon pin to the top of the piston lands.) is greater to compensate for the brevity of the stroke and ensure the piston reaches the top of the bore at TDC. Doing it that way means that everything else in the valvetrain and the cylinder castings can remain the same. It makes the rod/stroke ratio better too!

If you want to twin plug an 850 I know Mark has already done a map for an 850 Breva that had been modified this way. Grisoifying that map would, I'd guess, only involve minor tweaks and changes to the delta correction due to the different pipe arrangements.

850's are fun. An 1100 with an 850 gearbox would be awesome! Sure it would drink fuel like a drunken sailor on shore leave necks beer but it would be bloody good fun while it was doing it! Twisted Evil
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Thu May 28, 2020 11:04 am

I believe the Bellagio and 1200 2V Sports/Norges/Brevas share the same piston. And rings, according to Mr Mario.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Thu May 28, 2020 11:47 am

Nup, sorry.

Sport 1200 2V Barrel and piston kit-#976182

Piston assy-#981002

Bellagio 2V B&P-#976069

Piston assy-#976371

GRiSO 1100 B&P-976196 or GU05060130

Piston Assy-#05060230

Rods part numbers for bikes.

GRiSO and Sport-#976003

Bellagio-#976006

That would indicate that piston design is different for all three. Sport and Norge plus Breva 1200 I assume, have different throw cranks to the 1100's so deck height and piston dome design would be different as well as bore.

Bellagio has different crank, rods and pistons. It's a stand alone engine.

If people want to check you can see all three parts lists here.

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Mi_ka
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Thu May 28, 2020 3:19 pm

whoa! many thanks for the long answers - obliged!

may I ask 3 more questions:
 
1. What do you consider the failsafe constant RPM limit for the 850/1100 pushrod engines?
A brand new stretch of immaculate highway close-by could be tempting some times and an RPM red zone starting at 8K seems too close to the 8300 limiter for a pushrod engine along the lower gearing of the 850

2. What do you consider the wear-safe constant RPM limit?
I remember the old Guzzis had a yellow tacho rpm zone - was it for such a reason?
Constant high RPM pounding of the pushrods could induce bending like I was once told about airhead beemer engines?

3. If I make it into getting one, the GRiSO will outlive my riding life - despite health troubles, I am 47 so with luck it could take a good 2+ decades. And I live away from any proper Guzzi service people. Given plenty of space, winches and time, do I need special tools to perform small and medium maintenance work myself? Like clutch rebuilding etc.




Pete Roper wrote:
That would indicate that piston design is different for all three. Sport and Norge plus Breva 1200 I assume, have different throw cranks to the 1100's so deck height and piston dome design would be different as well as bore.

Bellagio has different crank, rods and pistons. It's a stand alone engine.

Any idea if it has any affinity with the UAV aero engine?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]




Pete Roper wrote:
Nup, sorry.

Sport 1200 2V Barrel and piston kit-#976182

Piston assy-#981002

Bellagio 2V B&P-#976069

Piston assy-#976371

GRiSO 1100 B&P-976196 or GU05060130

Piston Assy-#05060230

Rods part numbers for bikes.

GRiSO and Sport-#976003

Bellagio-#976006

 jocolor theory: different part numbers in part due to different internal paint schemes
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Fri May 29, 2020 12:10 am

1. It has a rev limiter. It's very conservative.

2. It has a rev limiter. It's very conservative.

3. For mechanical work? No.

As for the theory? SV + CCV divided by CCV. How could the pistons be the same?
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Mi_ka
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Fri May 29, 2020 1:32 am

Pete Roper wrote:
1. It has a rev limiter. It's very conservative.

2. It has a rev limiter. It's very conservative.

3. For mechanical work? No.

Me likes what I read!
just out curiosity, any idea at what rpm would their valves start floating to a worrying degree?

Pete Roper wrote:
As for the theory?   SV + CCV divided by CCV. How could the pistons be the same?
hey, didn’t you notice I put on the fool’s hat jocolor before “asking”?
Internal paint scheme would be too much even for Italian metal artists!
Wouldn’t it?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Fri May 29, 2020 2:14 am

As I've said before I'm a very boring literalist, subtlety is wasted on me.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Fri May 29, 2020 2:29 am


Pete Roper wrote:
As I've said before I'm a very boring literalist, subtlety is wasted on me.


I can confirm this statement as factual.




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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Fri May 29, 2020 3:49 am

Yep blunt as! My apologies on my aforementioned "bogus" claim. From Mario's perspective the rings are the same, meaning the bores are the same @ 95mm. Unproven, so I should just shut the f##k up if not sure.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Fri May 29, 2020 11:41 am

Hmmm.

Mario put new rings in the Bella recently. He said they were different to the other models, so I had to wait for the slow boat from Italia.

The bill told me they were Norge rings. I didn't query this.

Perhaps it was a billing glitch. I would not presume to question him.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Fri May 29, 2020 12:13 pm

Bore may be the same, can't remember, but the pistons would have to be different.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Fri May 29, 2020 2:10 pm

Oh, and on the question of whether the drone motor bears any relation to any of them the answer is no. It's a Smallblock motor and was never used in any motorbike.

There is one in the world built by a famous Guzzi Guy in Indiana. Do a web search for 'Aero Lario' and you'll probably find a host of links. I'm honoured to call Chuck a mate.
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Mi_ka
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Fri May 29, 2020 11:30 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Do a web search for 'Aero Lario' and you'll probably find a host of links. I'm honoured to call Chuck a mate.

thanks!
whoa, hemi oversize heads - damn the smog laws!
we could have some of this if not for no exceptions like they get in the extravagant cage world


Last edited by Mi_ka on Sat May 30, 2020 12:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Sat May 30, 2020 12:10 am

If that is what you want the V7-III series has 2V hemi heads, as does the V85. Both of them have shite suspension and handle like a fucked fridge.
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Mi_ka
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Sat May 30, 2020 12:32 am

duh, I ‘ve lost touch for too long!
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Mi_ka
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone?   GRiSO 850 vs 1100 experience anyone? Icon_minitime1Sat May 30, 2020 2:31 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Both of them have shite suspension and handle like a fucked fridge.

no, no, given the $$ (if at all),  it will either be a properly used GRiSO Motorcycle or, if $$ prove too few, a much cheaper over here Ducati desmo ... bicycle
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