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 2006 850 dies on idle

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Wallqvist
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:09 pm

Just bought a fine 850 that seems to have been taken care of but I have a problem, in that it dies on idle. Especially coming from speed and stopping down in a que or just twisting the throttle and then releasing it.
I'm new to guzzi coming from Triumph previously so there's a lot of reading up to do.
It's had the air box opened up and a K&N filter installed, Termignon exhaust and Dyno'd after this operation. From what I understand these early 850's do not have the issue with having to be rollerized?
Can anyone guide me in the right direction?

Thanks in advance, Johan.
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Pete Roper
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:55 pm

When it was dyno-tuned what exactly did they muck about with?
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Wallqvist
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PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:00 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
When it was dyno-tuned what exactly did they muck about with?

They opened (hacked) up the airbox, i have the parts and can basically glue it together again. They also put a K&N filter in and put on the Termignoni exhaust. Gut feeling is that it's not tuned to handle the massive amount of air and that when i roll of the throttle the engine is nearly strangled. But that's just my imagination, i know to little about her so far Smile
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Pete Roper
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:34 pm

(Sigh!) OK. As part of their vandalism did they also play about with the throttle bodies? Is the paint still intact on the throttle stop screw on the left hand throttle body? What about the linkage rod ball joints? Have they moved them?

Did they plug in any diagnostic tooling when they were working on it or were all their *Adjustments* physical?
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Wallqvist
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:37 pm

I'm waiting for some answers from the owner that did this, but from what I can see the yellow on the screw is intact.
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Wallqvist
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:52 pm

Would putting the airbox back to stock, with the exception of the K&N, be a good idea do you think?
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beetle
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:20 am


Ooh. That was me responding on FB about the throttle bodies and valves.


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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:21 am

Yes, but it's unlikely to fix the problem. The biggest problem with the K&N is it's a shit air filter. It won't really affect the running, it certainly won't make it any more powerful or run better, but in and of itself it won't really do anything.

If the paint is intact on the throttle stop screw it may be stepper motor related but the first thing to do is ensure the tune is correct and for that you will need a manometer, a laptop with Guzzidiag loaded and the cables to connect to the bike.

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Pete Roper
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:22 am

beetle wrote:

Ooh. That was me responding on FB about the throttle bodies and valves.



Ah. You know about this one do you Mark?
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:32 am

Pete Roper wrote:
Yes, but it's unlikely to fix the problem. The biggest problem with the K&N is it's a shit air filter. It won't really affect the running, it certainly won't make it any more powerful or run better, but in and of itself it won't really do anything.

If the paint is intact on the throttle stop screw it may be stepper motor related but the first thing to do is ensure the tune is correct and for that you will need a manometer, a laptop with Guzzidiag loaded and the cables to connect to the bike.

Thanks I will book a date with the Guzzi specialists over here and hope for the best. Thanks for you time!
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:32 am

beetle wrote:

Ooh. That was me responding on FB about the throttle bodies and valves.



Aha! Thanks again then Smile
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:47 am

Pete Roper wrote:
beetle wrote:

Ooh. That was me responding on FB about the throttle bodies and valves.



Ah. You know about this one do you Mark?



Yes. I was thinking make sure the basics are right as a baseline. Even with the K&N, if it has been remapped via dyno, then at some point it must have idled well enough to ride away from the dyno shop.


¯\_(ツ)_/¯



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Pete Roper
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:00 am

Depends whether it's been remapped. My guess is they just played with the throttlebodies, destroyed the airbox, fitted a non-filter and charged a bunch of money. Evil or Very Mad
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:18 am


My Swedish isn't that good, but I get the impression on Faecesbook that it had been mapped by the dyno guy.


scratch



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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:13 am

[quote="beetle"]
My Swedish isn't that good, but I get the impression on Faecesbook that it had been mapped by the dyno guy.

Yes, that's what he said. I will contact the Dyno guy and check. Really appreciate both your advice. Cheers, johan
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:39 am

Getting a look at the map would probably help.

Knowing what tuning software they used would also be handy.
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PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:39 am

Pete Roper wrote:
Getting a look at the map would probably help.

Knowing what tuning software they used would also be handy.

Just spoke to the shop that did the mapping and procedure on the airbox. The guy who did it no longer works there, but I spoke to another mechanic, and they only work on italian bikes specifically Ducati and Moto Guzzi. According to him the procedure with the airbox is a must when mapping for an open exhaust as they don't get enough air as stock bikes. They recommended a throttle sync since that hasn't been done in a long time and lo and behold... to adjust the throttle stop as this is the only way to get the revs up on idle and anything under 1000 is to low for the bike. Surprised me as all I have ever read so far says, never ever touch the throttle stop screw Smile
So in short, it was mapped and tuned at Italia Bike Center, who service italian bikes, they should know their thing I suppose. I will get the throttles synced and take it from there.

Thanks so much for your time. I love the bike community and the willingness to help a fellow biker out. Thanks again!
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:59 am

Wallqvist wrote:
According to him the procedure with the airbox is a must when mapping for an open exhaust as they don't get enough air as stock bikes. They recommended a throttle sync since that hasn't been done in a long time and lo and behold... to adjust the throttle stop as this is the only way to get the revs up on idle and anything under 1000 is to low for the bike. Surprised me as all I have ever read so far says, never ever touch the throttle stop screw Smile



This type of rubbish is typical of people who don't understand Guzzi engines, and is completely wrong. If I'm reading this right, they did adjust the throttle stop, or possibly the linkage. If that's the case, you're buggered. Unless they didn't reset the TPS, in which case you might be able to be saved. If so, under no circumstances let anybody touch the throttle bodies.


Quote :

So in short, it was mapped and tuned at Italia Bike Center, who service italian bikes, they should know their thing I suppose. I will get the throttles synced and take it from there.


No, they don't.




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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:06 am

beetle wrote:
Wallqvist wrote:
According to him the procedure with the airbox is a must when mapping for an open exhaust as they don't get enough air as stock bikes. They recommended a throttle sync since that hasn't been done in a long time and lo and behold... to adjust the throttle stop as this is the only way to get the revs up on idle and anything under 1000 is to low for the bike. Surprised me as all I have ever read so far says, never ever touch the throttle stop screw Smile



This type of rubbish is typical of people who don't understand Guzzi engines, and is completely wrong. If I'm reading this right, they did adjust the throttle stop, or possibly the linkage. If that's the case, you're buggered. Unless they didn't reset the TPS, in which case you might be able to be saved. If so, under no circumstances let anybody touch the throttle bodies.


Quote :

So in short, it was mapped and tuned at Italia Bike Center, who service italian bikes, they should know their thing I suppose. I will get the throttles synced and take it from there.


No, they don't.





No they haven't touched the throttle stop but that was his recommendation. Sounds weird that they run business for many years where they only sell and service italian bikes and would recommend something that is absolutely wrong. I will however get it synced and take it from there.
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Pete Roper
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:52 am

Sorry, but they are utterly clueless. Do it yourself. You can't make a bigger hash of it than they have.
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PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:55 am

Pete Roper wrote:
Sorry, but they are utterly clueless. Do it yourself. You can't make a bigger hash of it than they have.

How weird. So you would recommend rebuilding the airbox, installning an original filter and syncing the throttles? Even with the current mapping?
Regards
Johan
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Pete Roper
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:14 am

I'm buggered if I know what they've done to the mapping, if anything, but this whole idea that you have to 'Open the airbox'. Let's unpack that silly little idea for starters.

The airbox on your 55 hp 850 is essentially identical to the airbox on a 100 hp 1200. If the airbox was such a limiting factor how do you explain a 1200 producing twice the power? Magic? Does the 1200 have a fairy-dust dispenser downstream of the airbox? The whole thing is stupid beyond belief. For what it's worth a V4 Tuono produces about 120 hp straight out of the crate. It uses a smaller filter, albeit a larger plenum in the airbox. You get no gains by butchering the airbox and although you may get a minor increase in peak power by putting a stupidly loud exhaust on it you will gut the bottom end and weaken the midrange.

How do Beetle and I know this? Because we've tried all this shit and found it desperately wanting in terms of any benefit! As for the suggestion that the throttle stop screw be adjusted this is a clear, definitive, suggestion that the person who told you this 'Has' to be done doesn't have the first idea about how the W5AM system works on a Guzzi. You can't change the idle speed by moving the throttle stop screw! The target idle is hard coded into the ecu and it is aimed for and kept steady by an air over idle system controlled by a device called a stepper motor. If you move the screw all you do is remove the baseline from which the ecu interprets how much fuel and spark advance the engine requires at a given throttle opening. If your man doesn't understand that he has no right to claim he's able to 'Tune' your bike.

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Bill Hagan
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:18 am


I am -- as all who read this except, possibly, the OP know -- generally clueless about things mechanical except to report symptoms and whine for help. jocolor  

That said, here I go, but only because of my recent Stornello experience with dying idle.

Is it possible, Pete (yes, I saw your stepper-motor reference) and Mark (and any others playing whack-the-mole here Very Happy ) that the OP's issue is caused by what caused my own issue, i.e., oil in the air box from overfilling or otherwise and thus mucking up the sensors in the TB's?

Johan, I appreciate your surprise about your dealer's lack of competence despite its reputation.  I can only say that I have spent many dollars -- even an estimate is a $tate $ecret lest Kathi find out, tho I think she suspects it's not the $100 or so I have told her it is  queen  Wink -- at dealers who proceeded to reward me with problems.  There have been notable exceptions, but more often than not, my dealer interactions have been disappointing and expensive.  

Yet, I have never received anything but spot-on assistance from this site, with Pete and Beetle as the stars of the show.  You can take what they say about Guzzis to the bank.  

OTOH, I recommend that you politely ignore as I do their views on wine, whiskey, women, world events, and other trivial subjects.   cheers

Best wishes on resolving your issues.

Bill

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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:30 am

Thanks all! I will visit another shop for the sync and hopefully they have a better idea and knowledge. They come highly recommended.
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Pete Roper
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2006 850 dies on idle Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2006 850 dies on idle   2006 850 dies on idle Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:35 am

If I were you I'd find someone who can read and save your current map and reinstall the factory map for the time being. Whatever has been done to it it will be easier to try and rectify it from a known baseline, ie. the factory settings.

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