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 Having a look at the cylinder

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Pete Roper
Evilgarfield
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Evilgarfield
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PostSubject: Having a look at the cylinder   Having a look at the cylinder Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:11 am

Hello.
Out of curiosity, I would like to have a look into my cylinder to see how it's made and how everything looks like after 40k km. I have a 1100 and looked at the manual and from the images, they seem to remove the rocker arms. I would prefer to avoid this. Is that necessary or can I just remove the tank, take out the plugs, remove the cylinder cover, unscrew some screws, remove the oil pipe and pop the thing out ?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Having a look at the cylinder   Having a look at the cylinder Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:26 am

I'm sorry? Are you drunk? Or is this some sort of a joke?
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Evilgarfield
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PostSubject: Re: Having a look at the cylinder   Having a look at the cylinder Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:36 am

It's a real question, no need to be rude. I'm no mechanic but I'm trying to learn. Sorry if it's a dumb question but I have some time, a motorcycle and I don't see why I could not remove a head to have a look. So if there is something critical that I don't know, please enlighten me. But from the manual, this does not seem much harder than greasing the swing arm bearing.

My question about the rocker arms is because in the manual they do not talk about removing the valve rockers but in 1 image they are on and in the next they are not.
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Evilgarfield
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PostSubject: Re: Having a look at the cylinder   Having a look at the cylinder Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:41 am

Ok, I had a closer look and I now see that they have to be removed as the rods are bolted to it. Sorry, I did not realize that before.
Then next question is, if I remove the rods, nothing bad happens and I don't need a special too other than the one for the inner spark plug. The tool 10.90.72.00 is used for valve removal only, right?
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Having a look at the cylinder   Having a look at the cylinder Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:56 am


Step away from the motorcycle. Have a cup of tea and a good lie down.

It's only done 40K km. When you add another 150K km, then this might be a good not unreasonable idea.




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Holger
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PostSubject: Re: Having a look at the cylinder   Having a look at the cylinder Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:57 am

never touch I running system

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Evilgarfield
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PostSubject: Re: Having a look at the cylinder   Having a look at the cylinder Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:07 pm

Ok guys could  you please tell me why this would be  such a bad idea to remove the head compared to, say, removing the carc unit or the oil sump? Is it a problem with the timing system?

Again I'm here to learn. Telling me not to do it but not giving the reason behind it does not make me smarter Smile

Holger wrote:
never touch I running system

Don't worry, I would switch the motor off first Very Happy
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Holger
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PostSubject: Re: Having a look at the cylinder   Having a look at the cylinder Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:21 pm

this idea is nonsensical.
If there are no abnormal noises or noticeable oil consumption, do not remove a cylinder head.
If your curiosity is so great to see what it looks like inside, then get an endoscope camera.

But: it's your bike - not ours
so do what you want.
Just see from the answers what others think about it.

Greetings
Holger
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Having a look at the cylinder   Having a look at the cylinder Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:25 pm

Evilgarfield wrote:
It's a real question, no need to be rude. I'm no mechanic but I'm trying to learn. Sorry if it's a dumb question but I have some time, a motorcycle and I don't see why I could not remove a head to have a look. So if there is something critical that I don't know, please enlighten me. But from the manual, this does not seem much harder than greasing the swing arm bearing.

My question about the rocker arms is because in the manual they do not talk about removing the valve rockers but in 1 image they are on and in the next they are not.

My question was not meant to be rude but why would you start pulling a cylinder off a perfectly happy motor! What do you expect to learn? Or see?

If you are interested in what a cylinder looks like and examining things like the piston, gudgeon pin and rings why not just go to a bike wrecker and buy the cheapest four stroke motor they have and start tearing into that? Why do it with your GRiSO?

You've already said you are 'No mechanic' which I take it to mean that you have little or no understanding of vehicles. That being the case I cannot counsel more strongly against experimenting on your own, quite rare and expensive, vehicle.

The Guzzi motor, especially the 2V lump, is delightfully simple. The thing is parts are disproportionately expensive. If you screw something up, which as a novice is really quite likely, it will cost you bigly and you may damage something that renders the repair cost unsupportable.

Before you start pulling it to bits learn how to tune and maintain it properly. If you really feel the need to pull something apart I suggest a small upright single cylinder OHC Honda engine as these will teach you everything you might ever want to know about how a good engine is built.

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Holger
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PostSubject: Re: Having a look at the cylinder   Having a look at the cylinder Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:37 pm

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Evilgarfield
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PostSubject: Re: Having a look at the cylinder   Having a look at the cylinder Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:58 pm

Thanks all for the feedback. I understood and won't do it .

Now, I have a general understanding on how an engine works and have messed around some cheap 2 and 4 strokes. Removing as cylinder cover in those occasions has never been a problem. I am a micro technical engineer and have dismantled and assembled mechanical systems (from automatic watches to electron microscope) before.
So far I have done several services on the GRiSO (brake bleed, valve clearance, alternator belt change, swing arm maintenance, TB clean and balance and tire changes) and thought that removing the head would not be such a big deal, especially since you said it yourself, it is a simple layout.
It obviously is and that's why I asked before doing anything stupid.
May I ask why this procedure is more delicate than other? Here are the points that I see:

  • Rods removal --> is there some critical placement that would be hard to set again when reassembling?
  • Valves --> they stay in place, gap would need to be reset
  • Gasket --> might have to change it
  • Piston --> since it's only the head that gets removed, it can't pop out and rings stay in place
  • Rocker shafts --> careful to assemble the 3 washers in the right order


Nothing seems too dangerous or require a high precision during reassembly.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Having a look at the cylinder   Having a look at the cylinder Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:03 pm

OK, go ahead. Knock yerself out. I just hope it doesn't bite you on the bum.

The main thing is though it's madness to disassemble a perfectly happy motor.
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Having a look at the cylinder   Having a look at the cylinder Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:11 pm

We (mostly) all break things when we first take them apart - so it is best to start with an engine which does not matter to you and is not expensive (and does not imobilise your GRiSO).  

I started mechanicing on cars then on a push rod honda 50 with a cast iron cylinder head (1967 C100)  I over tightened valves, snapped a stud, seized a valve stem and caused (then fixed) numerous oil leaks.  All of it on a cheap, bullet proof and low value bike - now if i had started with a Norton International -that would have been an expensive crime!!

Pete is right
Pete Roper wrote:
Before you start pulling it to bits learn how to tune and maintain it properly. If you really feel the need to pull something apart I suggest a small upright single cylinder OHC Honda engine as these will teach you everything you might ever want to know about how a good engine is built.

Although a four-stroke engine is less temperamental than a two stroke engine, Holger is right disturbing a system that starts and runs for no good reason is not a good idea because you are risk of finding one of the many ways of stopping it from working again.  

One good example would be that undoing the cylinder-head nuts reduces the clamping pressure on the barrel gaskets and an accidental nudge of the barrel could easily start a persistent oil leak.
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Evilgarfield
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PostSubject: Re: Having a look at the cylinder   Having a look at the cylinder Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:34 pm

lcjohnny wrote:


One good example would be that undoing the cylinder-head nuts reduces the clamping pressure on the barrel gaskets and an accidental nudge of the barrel could easily start a persistent oil leak.

That's a good example! Thanks.
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GuzziSteve
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PostSubject: Re: Having a look at the cylinder   Having a look at the cylinder Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:53 pm

Sounds like you are really getting IN TO IT. It's not just the pushrods but you have to get to the stud nuts which lay underneath. I think it's great to tear into it, at least you are not afraid of the process.
Every issue has a fix, like cyl moving. I go between fins and move head up on both sides to remove. I have spacers that slide on studs and put nuts on a couple studs across from ea other to hold em snug.
You can even rotate motor w/o stuff loosening.
For the inner spark plug I ground down a 5/8" deepwell plug socket on the end tapering back. Goes right in. Much better than the factory lawnmower type B/S they made.
Have at it I say, If you fuck it up it'll be $ for someone else better at it.
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