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 Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access

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PostSubject: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:38 am

Had a butchers under tank, only had the bike a week. Cleaned it tarted it, bled and cleaned rear brake, cleaned front brakes and replaced pads, bled the clutch.
Fettled it some, hoping to find why tank wont sit on the frame left side, its warped or swollen thats why, not that its visible but it wont go down any further left side.
No oil not too grotty under the tank.
Complete and total access to the fuel connector, wore my fingers sore and still couldnt get the f*cker to disconnect.
Am considering breather pipe replacment as ends hardened but concerned about those extreme bends from the heads.
I see some dopey f*cker blanked off the drain to the sump from the catch receptacle, where do they think all that goopy creamy gunk is going to go now!
I fitted an adpaptor and routed that drain down to the exhaust, any drips should get burnt off to atmosphere.
Am sure you will be glad to know Pete I reconnected the airbox breather returns, somebody had pulled them and left the airbox open where they connect.
The pipes were sitting there vacant and lightly oily.
I recall you mentioning the airbox having oil and the compartment, behind the battery did have some traces but nothing too bad.

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Last edited by Buellbloke on Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:44 pm

The large pipe in the second picture that was plugged is supposed to be. It is a redundant fitting on the condensor box from an earlier model. It is usually closed by a 'Condom' but any set up will do. The one that was on it looked perfectly adequate. The condensate return to the sump comes off the bottom right of the condensor box. The gas vent hose goes to the right hand spigot on the airbox, the stepper feed comes off the left hand spigot front of airbox.

At the age your bike is it would be sage to replace the breather hoses from the heads as they will split soon if they haven't already.
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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:15 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
The large pipe in the second picture that was plugged is supposed to be. It is a redundant fitting on the condensor box from an earlier model. It is usually closed by a 'Condom' but any set up will do. The one that was on it looked perfectly adequate. The condensate return to the sump comes off the bottom right of the condensor box. The gas vent hose goes to the right hand spigot on the airbox, the stepper feed comes off the left hand spigot front of airbox.

At the age your bike is it would be sage to replace the breather hoses from the heads as they will split soon if they haven't already.

You would say that about that fat hose its an emission controlled exit pipe blanked off to stop the goop getting out Laughing

The left side airbox pipe seems to be connected to that pipe at the back of the picture coming up out of somewhere below am assuming thats where the stepper feed is.

So the only one to deal with is that chrome metal pipe at the back of the sump as thats the return feed? Its possible venting the blanked plug has eliminated that return as a feed?


Last edited by Buellbloke on Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:10 pm

My mistak, I was going from memory. The condensate return pipe is the one that goes from the bottom left of the condensor box to the sump and the airbox vent goes to the left hand spigot on the airbox from the upper right of the condensor box. Early Saturday morning here p, I should of looked at the parts diagram before replying.

Yes. Cap the spigot that had the pipe with a bolt in. Not only will it blurt out a swag of oil but it is also an ingress point for dirt and dust which will then be able to get into the engine. This is another reason modern venting systems for crankcases are closed systems with the vent going to the 'Clean' side of the airbox.

Yes, there will be water in the condensate that will form an emulsion. That's what the creamy brown shite is. One of the main byproducts of combustion is water and that water that passes the rings by blow-by will condense and turn back into a liquid as soon as it is in an environment under 100*C. This is one of the reasons people fit oil thermostats or block off the oil cooler in cooler parts of the year, it's an attempt, often a vain one, to keep the oil temperature above the 96*C point at which water will begin to sublime off.

The hotter the expelled gas can be kept the greater the amount of moisture that will be expelled through the breather system and through the engine meaning less of it will end up returning to the sump with the oil condensate. There will always be some water in the engine. It's unavoidable. But minimising it is the aim.
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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:33 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
My mistak, I was going from memory. The condensate return pipe is the one that goes from the bottom left of the condensor box to the sump and the airbox vent goes to the left hand spigot on the airbox from the upper right of the condensor box. Early Saturday morning here p, I should of looked at the parts diagram before replying.

Yes. Cap the spigot that had the pipe with a bolt in. Not only will it blurt out a swag of oil but it is also an ingress point for dirt and dust which will then be able to get into the engine. This is another reason modern venting systems for crankcases are closed systems with the vent going to the 'Clean' side of the airbox.

Yes, there will be water in the condensate that will form an emulsion. That's what the creamy brown shite is. One of the main byproducts of combustion is water and that water that passes the rings by blow-by will condense and turn back into a liquid as soon as it is in an environment under 100*C. This is one of the reasons people fit oil thermostats or block off the oil cooler in cooler parts of the year, it's an attempt, often a vain one, to keep the oil temperature above the 96*C point at which water will begin to sublime off.

The hotter the expelled gas can be kept the greater the amount of moisture that will be expelled through the breather system and through the engine meaning less of it will end up returning to the sump with the oil condensate. There will always be some water in the engine. It's unavoidable. But minimising it is the aim.

Am running that fat pipe vertical in two feet of tubing, does it suck as well as blow as dont imagine at that length it can ingress anything, time will tell.
Modern systems are closed because emission law states nothing can be allowed to get out. Hence why harley M8's carbonise their pistons heavily in around 5k miles.
The GRiSO is by no means a modern engine, it like many other bikes has been dragged kicking and screaming via forms of emssion controlled systems into a dodgy future.
That f*cking big cloth covered pipe is the sump return hose, I thought it was some kind of loom but thats running along the right side of the frame.
There are two exit points one from each cylinder head, these are one way, then there are two returns both need to be vented to atmophere just like the gearbox does.
Its a big pipe that sump return why so big? It must have some kind of one way valve on it where it enters the sump?

Was hoping you would look see what was stopping my tank from sitting proper?
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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:58 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:06 pm

beetle wrote:
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Mental! great picture Beetle just what I needed, I knew that head breather on the right was fitted to the bottom.

Am thinking about fitting a Y piece or 3 way splitter between the condom on the left and the sump return and the airbox return then running that pipe to a catch recepticale.
I'll fit a condon the the right side of the airbox.
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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:27 pm

As soon as you give the bike a good thrashing it will spew copious oil out of the pipe. Cap the spigot.

The re-breather system is identical to the system used on Guzzis and many other motorcycles since time immemorial. If Harley's carbon up their pistons in short order that shows a deficiency in their oil condensation and return system, it has nothing to do with emissions standards. A well designed emissions control system has exactly zero effect on performance and not only helps the environment indirectly but also benefits all other road users directly by not blurting oil out all over the road producing a severe riding or driving hazard for not only the owner of the vehicle doing the breathing but all other road users as well. There is the added benefit that the vehicle won't be covered in dirt and grime adhering to the grot pumped out all over anywhere south of the breather pipe.

This idea that there is some sort of 'Star Chamber' type master plan to fit emissions control systems simply to interfere with 'Our fun' is not just infantile it is patently rubbish! When was the last time you consistently saw bikes, or cars, getting progressively less powerful over the years? 'Never' is the answer.

There is no one way valve in the return pipe. It doesn't need one. The head to the condensor box is high and long enough that crankcase pressure won't push the oil back up it and flood the box, at least not if the engine is in good mechanical condition and isn't over filled with oil.

As for how your tank is sitting? There are four mounts for the tank. The front ones use rubber bushes on the frame with top hat bushes on them. There are bushes in the tank and then decorative mushroom shaped spacers that go through them and seat on the top hat bushes. At the rear there are two rubber bushes screwed into the frame on which the tank sits. Above them the battery tray fits and the tank is retained to the bushes which are a couple of centimetres tall by 8mm head 6mm bolts that go through washers that fit on top of the battery tray. It sounds to me as if there might be something awry with the rear support bushings canting the tank at an angle. If you look at the parts diagrams you can clearly make out the assembly order.

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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:34 pm

Buellbloke wrote:


Am thinking about fitting a Y piece or 3 way splitter between the condom on the left and the sump return and the airbox return then running that pipe to a catch recepticale.
I'll fit a condon the the right side of the airbox.

Why? The standard set up works just fine! The large, be-condomed, spigot is a left over from when the same condensor box was used on the 2 valve motors as they had a timed breather run from the front of the camshaft to a spigotted fitting on the RH wall of the timing chest. A hose from there used to go to the spigot on the condensor box. Because of the different breathing arrangement of the 8V the large spigot is redundant sand capped. The only reason it's there is because it wasn't worth redesigning and remanufacturing the condensor box.

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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:06 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
As soon as you give the bike a good thrashing it will spew copious oil out of the pipe. Cap the spigot.

The re-breather system is identical to the system used on Guzzis and many other motorcycles since time immemorial. If Harley's carbon up their pistons in short order that shows a deficiency in their oil condensation and return system, it has nothing to do with emissions standards. A well designed emissions control system has exactly zero effect on performance and not only helps the environment indirectly but also benefits all other road users directly by not blurting oil out all over the road producing a severe riding or driving hazard for not only the owner of the vehicle doing the breathing but all other road users as well. There is the added benefit that the vehicle won't be covered in dirt and grime adhering to the grot pumped out all over anywhere south of the breather pipe.

This idea that there is some sort of 'Star Chamber' type master plan to fit emissions control systems simply to interfere with 'Our fun' is not just infantile it is patently rubbish! When was the last time you consistently saw bikes, or cars, getting progressively less powerful over the years? 'Never' is the answer.

There is no one way valve in the return pipe. It doesn't need one. The head to the condensor box is high and long enough that crankcase pressure won't push the oil back up it and flood the box, at least not if the engine is in good mechanical condition and isn't over filled with oil.

As for how your tank is sitting? There are four mounts for the tank. The front ones use rubber bushes on the frame with top hat bushes on them. There are bushes in the tank and then decorative mushroom shaped spacers that go through them and seat on the top hat bushes. At the rear there are two rubber bushes screwed into the frame on which the tank sits. Above them the battery tray fits and the tank is retained to the bushes which are a couple of centimetres tall by 8mm head 6mm bolts that go through washers that fit on top of the battery tray. It sounds to me as if there might be something awry with the rear support bushings canting the tank at an angle. If you look at the parts diagrams you can clearly make out the assembly order.


Pete I enjoy your information I need it to sort this bike out Cool
 
As for a master plan what do you think E10 is about f*cking over older machines getting us to go electric.
The world is f*cked nothing we do now is going to change that.

I never thought that mounts could be out, the rear one makes the side panel not line up properly, am going to look into that Cool

Will leave everything as is block the spigot off and just vent out the sump one.

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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:21 am

Well, that's me told. I wish you well in your uncaring, nihilistic future. I hope you edited the post because you realised how much rubbish it contained.

Oh, and I have a second hand crank and matching big end shells in stock when you require them.
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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:55 am

Pete Roper wrote:
Well, that's me told. I wish you well in your uncaring, nihilistic future. I hope you edited the post because you realised how much rubbish it contained.

Oh, and I have a second hand crank and matching big end shells in stock when you require them.

No Pete your the man if you say don't do it then more fool me if I ignore your advice New Here
I always waffle a load of shit, read back over and think wtf delete.
Plus I received warnings not to piss you off Shocked

I retro fitted the bolt in the spigot, checked hose routing, cleaned the corroded tank breather with a drill bit a piece of wire and some compressed air and fitted new hoses.
Re-fitted the tank, moving a spacer thing that was under the left side of the plastic ignition trim to the right side, the difference was enough to equalise the tank sides.
Was probably two of those spacer things that sit under that trim.
Re-connected the tank vents to the the drain hose. Ensuring the gearbox breather was up over and out of the way Laughing
Am of the mindset if it aint broke don't fix it, will only mess with the sump drain if it causes me aggro Rolling Eyes

Am finding them front rubber nuts in captives that hold the tank trim panels on a pain so gave up fitting them.
One ripped out so bought new ones but now the bolts can't reach the captive nuts doh!


Last edited by Buellbloke on Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:54 am

I am not sure that any group of humans have ever been together enough to run a conspiracy  Very Happy     In every organisation that i have been in or looked at - what outsiders see as a conspiracy is..... actually either unintended consequences or a simple cock-up  Razz

Both global warming and Guzzi wiring are examples... not planned and no conspiracy; just the Shit & Fan supply department working overtime again.  

But back to the subject study  
Guzzi big-block breather systems recirculate a lot of oil especially at revs and even more if the oil is filled to the top mark on the dipstick. So if you leave an open breather and then ride it hard you are likely to empty the sump - and that may (as farao Pete farao says ) be on the tyres of poor beggar behind.

Also - if your' tank really does not fit - like it seems too long ?
they are made of that plastic that enlarges when ethanol fuel with water in is left in the tank - so in that case it may need emptying and drying out

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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:58 am

Pete and Beetle are both gods. One has the patience of a saint, one doesn't.

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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:41 pm


Papa Lazarou wrote:
Pete and Beetle are both gods. One has the patience of a saint, one doesn't.


Suspect







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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:10 pm

beetle wrote:

Papa Lazarou wrote:
Pete and Beetle are both gods. One has the patience of a saint, one doesn't.


Suspect








Depends on the day!
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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:05 am

Try this connector - had no more trouble since using it!
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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:06 am

The hoses to the heads, is it necessary to yank the tank or can it be finagled?
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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:31 am

rustyrotor wrote:
The hoses to the heads, is it necessary to yank the tank or can it be finagled?

Pete Roper is ya man but as for finagled I highly doubt he is up for any of that Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:57 pm


rustyrotor wrote:
The hoses to the heads, is it necessary to yank the tank or can it be finagled?


It can be finagled. I did it once. I wouldn't do it again. I became very shouty. I strongly recommend pulling the tank. The drama of releasing the "quick disconnect" ( Rolling Eyes ) will be nothing in comparison the shouting and garment rending that would otherwise occur.





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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:00 pm

rustyrotor wrote:
The hoses to the heads, is it necessary to yank the tank or can it be finagled?

Breather hoses or coolant? Coolant definitely not if you want to swap them out. Breather?well if Mark has done it it's obviously possible but knowing how cramped it is and the proximity of the loom and sensor wiring on the right especially I shudder to think how awkward it would be. Sounds like another of those things where people make things ten times harder for themselves simply because they don't want to remove something comparatively simple.

If you are worried about breaking the fuel elbow on the pump just pull the injectors and lift the tank off while getting your assistant to thread them through the frame and sensor wires. Then you can invert the tank on a soft cloth on the bench, (Be aware it will leak from the cap.) and you can work on disconnecting the QR fitting there. On reassembly spray the inside of the fitting with some lithium grease or the like. It'll make it much easier to disconnect next time.

Regardless of when you disconnect the fuel line though this is really one of those jobs where having a helper is of enormous assistance.
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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:37 pm

Funny this thread is top of the newsletter trending topics, have earned -2 Ghetto Cred from it Laughing Am I setting a new standard Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:28 pm

We set the standards low so they can be exceeded by everyone!

Well I am kidding on that front - people score based on how they feel.

The quick-disconnect fuel line - the best way (don't know if it was mentioned above again) is to disconnect the electrical, 4 pole plug to the fuel tank, attempt to start the engine - it will probably sputter a bit, as the fuel pressure dies off, turn ignition off and attempt to undo the connector. This way is much easier as it is not working against the pressure in the fuel lines and should just pop off, PROVIDED you are pulling it straight - pulling it crooked may end up breaking it! Patience is a virtue here...

On re-assembly, squirt it with some lithium grease, as noted by Pete, for next time.

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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:18 am

Something that frustrates me here is that at some point years ago I figured out a bodge that made undoing the fuel line easy —-aaaaand nope, not a clue. I think I jumped a circuit. Hm. Disconnected the fuel pump?
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PostSubject: Re: Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access   Unquestionable Fuel Tank Pressure Connector Access Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:27 am

you can unscrew the inectors and withdraw them with the pipe
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