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 It's not always the oil pressure sender...

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Lazlokovacs
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PostSubject: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:58 pm

Looking for advise/sympathy.

2007 GRiSO 1100, approx 14000 miles.

I've owned my GRiSO for about 3.5 years.  Shortly after I bought it with about 8000 miles, it developed a weird oil light thing.  Upon starting everything was fine.  Easy start, good idle, just right. But if you blipped the throttle, the oil warning light would come on.  Another blip, or ride off down the street, and it would go off after maybe 2-10 seconds.  

Learning of the undependability of the oil pressure sending unit, I took to replacing that.  No change, but no problem with the bike that I could discern.  I rode to CA from Phoenix (about 1000 mi plus round trip) a number of times and it was flawless.  I run Motul 10w60.

I didn't ride much this summer, if it wasn't 110 plus, it was pouring monsoon rain.  Anyway, I started it the other day just to run some fuel through and maybe go for a ride now that it's cooled back down to what most people would consider a warm summer day.  I left it idling for a couple minutes, then it stalled.  I thought that was weird and tried to restart it.  It was really struggling to turn over and sounded like the battery was dead and it didn't sound good.  The battery was a few years old, so I bought a replacement.  No change, just really hard turning over a bit until the starter motor gave up and it sounded like a low battery. I took it to the shop and they think the motor's about seized.  

Needless to say, I'm pretty bummed.

As I see it, I've got three possibilities, but if you can think of others, I'm all ears, maybe it's not blown???

1. Sell as is.  Rebuilding the engine is out of my wheelhouse.

2. Have the shop rebuild the engine.

3. Source an intact engine (Ebay?) and have the shop swap out.

Thoughts?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Sun Oct 30, 2022 4:46 am

First you have to establish what has actually happened. Before that it's all conjecture.

First question I'd ask is what year and, more importantly, what engine number?

Why? Because if it is a later bike it may have one of the trochoidal oil pumps that had a shitty rotor. This problem affected, almost universally, Norges. Particularly red Norges from the early production run of, I think, 2008. That would mean probably build of late 2007 to early 2008 for a GRiSO 1100.

Can you confirm it's build from the Vin? If not give me engine and Vin # and I'll see if I can dig it up.
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Sun Oct 30, 2022 7:35 am

Pete, is that the same oil pump that was fitted to late Cali vintages? the word trochoidal is ringing some bells. I had the exact same thing happen to a mate's Cali Vintage as the OP. Oil light coming on intermittently until the engine seized. On teardown I found Oil pump nut had come loose and the pump had stopped spinning. Crank was welded into the rear main bearing. Cylinders etc were fine.

Now I come to think of it, I rebuilt the engine with one of the same pumps part number 976134 (which cost a fortune) are they known to routinely fail????
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Solchris
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:42 am

Thanks Pete, it's a 2007 VIN is ZGULSC0067M114089.

It's red, if that makes any difference. : )

Assuming for a moment that it has the crappy oil pump and that it failed, I'm still left with a total rebuild, no?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Sun Oct 30, 2022 12:30 pm

The only way to know is to go in and look. Initially you could pull the timing chest with the motor in the frame, remove the timing chain and sprockets and then the pump for a look-see but if it has killed the pump, and sadly the symptoms would suggest you have, then it's going require engine removal anyway....

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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Sun Oct 30, 2022 5:25 pm

976134 is unfortunately the same part number as listed in the GRiSO parts manual, so yes... IF it's the same thing as happened to my freind's bike, your crank will now be welded to the crank case. That's still an IF at this point.

Agree with Pete, only way forward is to pop the timing cover off and report back.
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:52 am

It sounds like both you guys think the engine is seized.  The shop thinks it is, it sure sounds like it to me.  The only question is how bad and if the oil pump is the crappy one.  The problem here is that frankly at $120 per hour to have the shop confirm what we all think, seems like not a good use of money, unless the best course of action is to rebuild it.  (BTW, the shop it's at is two hours each way, so I can't just pop over).

So, if it's seized, what's the most prudent course of action? Dump it? Ebay or other used motor replacement? Rebuild the one that's in it?  With the information available, I understand there's no "right" answer, just educated guess.  

I should probably fess up and admit that I'd really like a 1200.  If there was a way to put a 1200 into the 1100, that would be sweet.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 01, 2022 1:08 pm

Could be the pump. Could be the spacer gasket having blown out. Who knows? But yes,it does sound as though it's terminal.

Rebuilding the motor is unlikely to be economically viable so I'd forget that option. Basically though you could replace it with any motor from any of the 2V CARC bikes. You couldn't use a 1200 Hi-Cam as the clutch and gearbox are different and it would require a host of other different parts including throttle bodies snorkels for same and possibly a different fuel tank.

A Breva 1100 motor is identical. A Sport 1200 or Norge motor would give you a bit more capacity but add little in the way of performance and would require remapping. Not a big deal but it renders it not a 'Straight Swap'.

The motor is of course theoretically rebuildable but if the crank is damaged, and it almost certainly is, it will require replacement as Guzzi no longer offered oversized bearings. You could use earlier bearings from older models as they are I believe dimensionally the same but if you grind the crank you loose the nitriding making it significantly more prone to future damage. Given it has almost certainly run its big ends the rods will also need to be closed and ground and new bolts used, if indeed they are still serviceable? The labour involved will be substantial as well.

The shop should be able to tell you for certain the extent of the damage simply by pulling the sump and spacer. If the sump is fill of slivers of big end shell and the rods are either seized solid to the crank pin or flopping around on it with loads of clearance then it's all over. The choice then is to either get a replacement motor and slip it in, (Do the spacer gasket before you do, eh.) or wreck it out and buy yourself an 8V. All up I'd think the second option would work out cheaper in the long run.

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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 01, 2022 1:39 pm

I'm by no means a CARC expert, not even close..But I have been following this thread and I HAVE been down this road several times in my 55 years of riding and owned over 100 bikes and I have spent many $1,000's of hard earned USD on them I wish I wouldn't have .
If the shop who you would trust enough do the work thinks its frozen then I would also trust their opinion without spending more than an hour more labor..that along with the expert advice you have been getting from some very knowledgeable here as your guide.
Since you seem to have not much sentimental attachment to the bike, and in fact wish you had a different model (CARC) , your not interested in attempting to do any of the work yourself ,and money is an object...I think Pete has the most realistic and cost effective conclusion.
I have seldom dove into a job like that, that in the end didn't cost me at least twice what I hoped it would, if done right, Then their is the time and frustration involved , time the bike is down waiting for machine work and parts, the time the mechanic has available to jump in and out of your job, ..and the time lost riding, where you live this is the best time of the year to ride isnt it? I would write it off and either part it out or sell it for what you can get and go find yourself a nice used 1200SE...we are coming into the best time of the year to find a good deal here in the states , the Winter and Holiday time, to find a good deal on any type of used motorcycle .
Kind of " know when to hold em know when to fold em" situation imo.
Hope you don't mind my 2 cents

Good luck..Happy riding!

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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:30 pm

First, for each of you who have given advice here, thanks. You are all gentlemen of distinction, giving your time and wisdom freely.

Commenting on both above posts from Pete and kindoy...

Unless the shop needs the bike out of there, I think I'll do a little digging and see what it might cost to swap out the engine, can't hurt.
It pains me to not let a bike go on my terms. You can't keep them all, and for the most part at one time or another I've wished to have almost all of them back, if only for a weekend. When I put in the new battery and got the same painful barely turning over result, I had to make peace with the GRiSO that our time together might be over. The bike is in particularly good condition, and it was a blast to ride. I would prefer to sell it intact, such as it is, to someone who had the time and interest to rebuild or replace the engine. But in terms of sentimentality, while I've had to accept that I might be done with this particular GRiSO, of all the bikes on the market, I'm thinking another GRiSO, just newer.

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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:52 pm

I picked up the bike last week from the shop and had the same experience I had the first time I saw it, I couldn't believe how beautiful it was. So, I'm rethinking selling it for scrap. Rebuilding the engine is beyond my skillset and as discussed, makes zero sense financially. However, doing an R and R on the engine doesn't look too difficult.

I've found a couple engines on Pinwall that were removed from running 1100 Breva's with about the same mileage as mine.

A couple questions come to mind:

How do I know that a new (used) Breva engine of approximately the same age doesn't have the dreaded trochoidal oil pump? If it does have it, is there a way to swap it with whatever design is more reliable? Or is it possible to locktite the nut in place to avoid premature failure?

Besides replacing the sump gasket, what other maintenance or improvements would be recommended before putting the engine into the bike?

What gaskets, seals, crush washers, one-time use bolts (flywheel?), sensors, etc., would I want to have on hand?
I would think, intake manifold, exhaust gaskets, new alternator belt, oil pressure sensor, valve cover gaskets, new spark plugs, oil, filter...

With the engine out of the bike, is there any other service that would be beneficial to undertake?

I have the official "Service Station Manual" which includes a really sparse description of engine removal. Is there any tricks or stuff that I'd really want to know beforehand? Also, it appears that the way they did it in the manual, the transmission came out with the engine. Is it possible/better, to separate the engine/transmission on the bike?

Anything huge I'm neglecting to factor in?

Is this just dumb?

Permission to peak freely granted.

Thanks







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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:20 pm

It's all perfectly doable. Gimme a few hours and I'll give a run-down n engine swap.

WRT the oil pump the trochoidal pump failures were not related to the pump shaft nut coming loose, that would seem to be an aberration on your motor. The problem was they there was a bad run of pumps and the outer rotor of the pump shattered. If Bill is watching this thread I think he's got some pictures, (Bill? Pictures? Nah. Never happens Very Happy!) of his failed pump in his Norge. If you want to understand how a trochoidal pump works just Google 'Gerotor pump' and see what pops up.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the pump design. It was simply a bad batch and as previously noted most of them seem to have gone in Norges. Don't fret about it unduly.

Another option you have is to buy a Norge or 1200 Sport motor if you can find one. The 2V motors are all dimensionally identical. You'd have to remap for the slightly larger capacity but throttlebodies etc. are a straight swap so you could easily build yourself a 1200cc 2V GRiSO if you cared too. That would have a little extra wank factor! Laughing

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Lazlokovacs
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:22 pm

OP... do you know what actually happened to the motor? has someone been in there and confirmed that its the oil pump that failed?
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:17 pm

Pete, I'm definitely down for wank factor. A quick check of the usual places had the 1200 engine $800 more than the 1100, so I'm not sure on that. If I end up going with the 1100, are there any performance mods that would see benefits? Lightened flywheel, that sort of stuff?
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:28 pm

Lazlo, no. All indications are that the engine is blown. With the intermittent oil pressure light on, that seems to be a good guess. Now that I've got the bike back home, I may do some exploring but I'm not sure other than lots of metal in the pan what I might find. Are you thinking there may be another explanation that would be easier/cheaper to fix than an engine swap?

There was the right amount of oil in the case and the bike was idling when it seized, not being flogged at redline.

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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:37 pm

I'm thinking that it would take 20mins to find out what happened.... And that knowledge might be useful in guiding you on your next step....

GRiSO flywheel is the lightest flywheel they ever put in a guzzi AFAIK

Obviously I don't know anything about your personal circumstances, but... if it was me and you really want a running GRiSO, I'd buy a used factory roller 1200 from somebody reputable and keep your wrecked one for spares! engine transplants can turn into a lot of labour $$ if you're not doing it yourself. It doesn't take too long if everything is done perfectly, but that's another big IF..... and if it isn't done perfectly you can spend a fair bit of time scratching your head trying to work out just which hose was not connected or which crucial part was left out of the engine etc

Just my 2c

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:02 pm

Installing a 1200 Hi-Cam is not a simple motor swap. Clutch, gearbox input shaft, (In other words the whole gearbox.), throttle bodies, intake snorkels, manifolds etc. are all different and the petrol tank has small differences. Easier, and probably cheaper, to simply buy an 8V.

I'll try and get round to engine swap hints today some time.
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:14 pm

I'd love to have a 1200 High Cam in my bike, but if wishes were fishes, we'd all live in the sea. As Pete has pointed out, it's a lot bigger project than an engine swap. Someday I'd like to ride the 1200 just to see what I'm missing, maybe one ride would convince me I couldn't live without it. Until I have that opportunity, getting the 1100 back on the road seems to be the best plan.
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:40 pm

In terms of what is easiest and probably cheapest I'd go with a Breva or GRiSO 1100 motor. Mechanically they are identical. The Breva motor might be a different colour and will have different rocker covers but they are a straight swap with the ones on your GRiSO. Apart from that you might have to tap some of the holes in the block to mount the oil cooler as they might not be tapped on the Breva due to the different location of the cooler. Apart from that it's a straightforward 'Drop In' swap requiring no remapping or anything. If you buy a long motor you won't even have to bugger about with clutch/alternator or whatever.
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:50 pm

I have no idea what the rules about posting links to other sites are on here, so just to be safe, the engine I'm looking at is on Flea-bay. Breva 1100. It's just the engine. No alternator, flywheel, etc. I'm assuming I can reuse those items from current engine. Are there any special Moto Guzzi tools I'm going to need? Some kind of flywheel lock comes to mind? I'm all about improvising for something I'm only going to need once, but if that tool is the key to success, better to get it beforehand.
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:49 pm

good luck.. and keep us updated!!
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:53 am

Yes, will do.  I hate it when a thread peters out with no resolution.  I have a Ducati MH900e I need to sell before I can get into the GRiSO engine swap.

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:57 pm

Just a little bit on engine swapping/removal.

If you go and look on YouTube you'll probably find a vid by a bloke in pommyland who took his GRiSO in to have the clutch replaced at what he said was half way through the bike's life. From memory he'd done 35,000 miles or some equally paltry distance so I thought it a bit weird to start off with. But I digress. Thing is to access the clutch the shop removed the engine from the front of the bike! Now why anyone would tackle things this way is utterly beyond me! There are so many impediments to getting it out! After the bodywork is off you'd need to remove the ECU, the alternator and the timing chest cover before there would be even a chance of pulling it out forward! It would be a bloody nightmare! A typical case of someone trying desperately to not remove stuff and in turn making their lives ten times harder than they would if they'd just gone at it logically! Getting the lump back in would of been even worse than getting it out but each to their own........

Anyway, to my mind by far the easiest way to swap the engine is simply remove the bodywork, disconnect the electricals and then start at the back and work forwards.

Brake off, wheel off, footrest hanger plates off, bevelbox off, swingarm off, shaft off, starter motor off, frame plate on RH side under gearbox off. Headers off, unbolt manifolds from heads, (Or remove airbox and throttlebodies.). Support motive unit on scissor-lift, remove engine mounting bolts, double check all wires and hoses are disconnected and lift the frame by pivoting it around the front axle and lifting at the rear whilst twisting the motive unit slightly to the left at the back and lowering the scissor lift.

Yes it's a bit of an enfuckment and it helps if you have an assistant but it is doable on your own, (Michael can do it solo from a wheelchair.). Once the motive unit is clear of the frame the gearbox can be unbolted and slid off the bell housing studs and placed to one side and the motor lifted clear.

The only special tool you really need is the clutch aligning tool. Everything else can be worked around.

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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:07 am

What? Forward? Try to line up shaft on trans would SUCK bigtime.  Strait down then strait up once back end is gone. No shortcutts. It has to come down to go forward. Trans would have to pivot on a hell of a tilt.
Fucking HOBBIEST, if all else fails read the book.

If this is the motor, seller is OK, I have bought a few parts from them. Plug & play like Pete says

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PostSubject: Re: It's not always the oil pressure sender...   It's not always the oil pressure sender... Icon_minitime1Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:21 pm

I’ve also bought a few things from Pinwall & have been pleased with the transaction. They are professional & want to maintain a good reputation
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