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 New V100 Mandello

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Oz1200Guzzi
BetaSteve
rick pope
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Pete Roper
LUCKY DAVE
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Duquois
Carlotto
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PostSubject: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:26 am

Hi Beetle,
I guess you've considered writing a map for the new V100?
Will it be much more complicated as the new bike comes with a fairly comprehensive electronics package?
Sorry if this has already been asked.
Cheers
Andrew
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:40 am


1. No
2. Nobody knows
3. See 1.








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Duquois
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:42 am

Will you consider it now the subject's been raised?
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moby
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:00 am

Hi Carlotto,

You tease the bull!

See Beetle's image to the left of his admirably brief response. "Bristle".

I figure that he's not going to engage with any "flea bitten varmint" of a thing until it proves itself worthy of the attention.

The Mandello might be the beginning of the diminishment of the gene pool.

The sailors' song from "The Tempest" ...

To sea boys!
And let her go hang.
She'd love not the savour of tar, nor of pitch ...
Yet a tailor might scratch her
Where'er she did itch"

Moto Guzzi - Eagle
Committee / shareholder.


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leafman60
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:27 am

I am eager to see the V100 in person.  Current early reviews of the machine now that it's out in the public are very positive. I have two prime concerns.  

The reports I've received from people who have seen and sat on the V100 are that it is a junior-sized machine.  Dimensionally, they say the bike felt smaller than the V85TT but bigger than the V7 series.  That's not good news to me.  I am interested in a machine in the ballpark of my BMW 1250GS or the H-D PA and countless other current adventure-style bikes.  

The other thing is the issue Moto Guzzi quality control and that's something that will take time to bear out. Electrical connectors, component assembly etc etc, are all things that have traditionally caused problems for Guzzi products. The old saying, "yeah, you have to sort them out to get them correct" has no place in the modern motorcycle market.  

An owner should not have to be a mechanic to own a Guzzi and deal with it.  Just look at the topics of how to fix them that pervade this very forum. For example, lingering in my mind is that I really should tear off the entire rear swing arm assembly of my new GRiSO and grease the bearings which probably were not greased at the factory.  I remember a host of these sort of things I had to do to my Stelvio while I had it.  Many of such problems should have been taken care of at the factory before the bikes were ever sold. Competition will continue to eat Guzzi's lunch if this persists.

.

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LUCKY DAVE
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:51 pm

Isn't the real issue whether or not you can break into the ecu, and if so is there a commonly available software that semi literate owners can successfully use to remap their bikes?

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LUCKY DAVE
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:52 pm

BTW I already told my dealer buddy to get me a silver/green S model.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:03 pm

LUCKY DAVE wrote:
Isn't the real issue whether or not you can break into the ecu, and if so is there a commonly available software that semi literate owners can successfully use to remap their bikes?



^^^^
This.


The V100 is ride-by-wire with dual electronic throttle bodies, and I suspect, controlled by an ECU with software closed up tighter than a frog's arse.


I'd bet dollars to doughnuts there will be no low cost solution for the end user to remap, assuming it's even possible (see previous frog's arse comment).







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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:13 pm

Even the earlier ECU's have a lot of *Unknown* tables that I imagine you mess with at your peril.

I don't doubt Mark's assessment that the security on the new system will be super-tight. Apart from anything else to allow it to meet anti-tampering standards that are rapidly becoming law in many jurisdictions. So how the hell do you write xdf. files for something you can't access?

The good news seems to be that the flip side to this coin is that the factory/Piaggio seem to have put a lot more effort into getting the mapping right on this model compared to previous ones. If you take a look at Gabro's assessment it sounds pretty good and pictures released of bikes at the 101st anniversary bash and later we're still showing bikes out and about with what looked to my untrained eye like datalogging equipment strapped to the back!

Like it or not I'm guessing that the days of aftermarket tuning may well be coming to an end. At least at a cost effective level. Really though it matters little as the whole technology will be gone in a generation or two. With luck, whatever replaces it will allow for a whole new world of possibilities to explore.

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Clancy
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:51 pm

With the ecu locked up I'm sure that the medicine men will start crawling back out, waving their sensor-fooling gizmos and shouting "cures all ails".

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rick pope
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Fri Dec 16, 2022 4:31 pm

Clancy wrote:
With the ecu locked up I'm sure that the medicine men will start crawling back out, waving their sensor-fooling gizmos and shouting "cures all ails".

Oh yeah.... Just yesterday, on a forum for campers, someone asked about some whiz-bang box that will get you 30% better fuel economy. Right. P. T. Barnum said it best...

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:54 am

Clancy wrote:
With the ecu locked up I'm sure that the medicine men will start crawling back out, waving their sensor-fooling gizmos and shouting "cures all ails".

They never went away Craig.

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BetaSteve
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Sat Dec 17, 2022 12:36 pm

I love my GRiSO and will probably retire it to a living room conversation piece when I’m done riding, hopefully 20+ years from now! On the flip side, absolutely no way would I buy the new V100 until it’s been in full production for two, maybe three years. What I’ve learned from Piaggio and my local(ish) dealer, no way. I’m funny like that - a brand new 20, 30 or even $5000 bike should be trouble free.
My ‘21 Ninja 1000sx has been just that. Yet here we are, as good as three years later, and Ivan, the best known Ninja tuner stateside, has nothing to offer, certainly not due to lack of demand either. In the USA, the EPA has taken up arms against some of the smaller German car tune suppliers, very likely in preparation to take on the bigger ones.
I’m convinced the time is near where nobody will be offering anything to modify the myriad of modules controlling a modern vehicle. Happened a while ago for Class 8 trucks and construction equipment.
I sincerely hope MG gets the Mandello right, lest they follow Norton and others down the road to where any production at all will be questionable from year to year.
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:39 pm

Certainly the new bike can be tuned any way you desire, just custom build a new ECU based on micro squirt.
We did it for our land speed record setting Aprilia RSV. Keep in mind with a supercharged/nitrous design we had to use speed/density and alphaN schemes at different points in the map, not exactly reasonable for a street bike, but we had to make 400 RWHP out of 1060cc to go 200 mph in the standing mile.....
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Sat Dec 17, 2022 3:01 pm

As you say though Dave it's not really practical for a road bike application and in a lot of jurisdictions nowadays would be illegal.

If someone were to go down a similar path though at least the V100 motor is a much better starting point than the Hi-Cam 1200 which has a host of limitations to its ability to produce bulk HP. The V100 at least has downdraft induction and flexible camming.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Sat Dec 17, 2022 3:26 pm


LUCKY DAVE wrote:
Certainly the new bike can be tuned any way you desire, just custom build a new ECU based on micro squirt.


Unfortunately, not everyone has the ability, or the inclination, to do this. The number of emails I get from people claiming to be computer illiterate is astounding. GuzziDiag terrifies them. I can only imagine the horror they would express at using something like TunerStudio.

As I previously mentioned, a low cost solution is what people will want (if it's even required for the V100). A plug 'n play Microsquirt is probably what the great unwashed will want, and it won't be "Guzzisti priced"  Very Happy


...I hear red suspenders snapping already....







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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Sat Dec 17, 2022 5:28 pm

Dave
With the skills of Micha, Jason, the rest of the crew and of course, yourself, it’s easy to see what you might call simple is anything but to 97.5% or more of the general motorcycling public…
Somewhat sad to know your V100 won’t be seen around the greater Seattle area… but it’d be great to have access to your opinion of it! Personally I can’t think of anyone better qualified!
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Sat Dec 17, 2022 6:13 pm

I’ll post my impressions/accolades/criticisms and perhaps suggested fixes/mods after I’ve ridden it a bit.
I don’t expect to see it after the first of the year at the earliest.
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:34 pm

As the ECU is the "venerable" 11MP, the chances of cracking it, to fiddle with, is pretty much non-existent at the moment UNLESS you are an authorised dealer - and even then I suspect very little can be done. I have 5 modes on my V85TT (same ECU) and they all seem to work well - obviously the off-road mode won't be needed on the V100, for some reason.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:28 pm


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11MP       "Tuners"




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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:38 am

Oz1200Guzzi wrote:
As the ECU is the "venerable" 11MP, the chances of cracking it, to fiddle with, is pretty much non-existent at the moment UNLESS you are an authorised dealer - and even then I suspect very little can be done. I have 5 modes on my V85TT (same ECU) and they all seem to work well - obviously the off-road mode won't be needed on the V100, for some reason.

The Piaggio portal and PADS has never allowed any form of dealer 'Map Modification'. With the factory tool you can upload new iterations to approved mapping, (But you can't 'Go Back') once a new map is uploaded. At least that's the way it worked while I was still an official service agent.

Certain aftermarket tools seem to be able to perform some of the tasks now no longer available to owners, (Turning off the service icon is an example.) but downloading the map from the ECU? Not as far as I'm aware.

If you can't download and look at the map you can't modify it. Without xdf. files and knowledge of how the assorted values and correction tables interact you can't modify the map and without some way to then upload a modified map? Well? You tell me.........

I'm not a 'Tuner'. I'm just an old, broken down, soon to be retired mechanic. But I can read the writing on the wall and the writing doesn't tell me that magical unicorn farts will suddenly open the gates to Valhalla.

Maybe I'm wrong. But I'll bet London to a brick that there will be churns and churns of snake oil out there being pushed as a recipe to *Unlock* stupid performance.

That's fine. Go for it. I'm done.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:06 am


11MP you say? Already "cracked" by UpMap.


...all bets are off.


As for an xdf? Give me an unencrypted map and I could figure it out. I've done it with Guzzi, Aprilia, and Ducati maps...




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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:22 am

beetle wrote:




Unfortunately, not everyone has the ability, or the inclination, to do this. The number of emails I get from people claiming to be computer illiterate is astounding. GuzziDiag terrifies them.

Embarassed Guilty as charged.

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janguzzi
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:05 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
But I can read the writing on the wall and the writing doesn't tell me that magical unicorn farts will suddenly open the gates to Valhalla.

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Stephen Lindsay
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PostSubject: Re: New V100 Mandello   New V100 Mandello Icon_minitime1Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:29 pm

moby wrote:
Hi Carlotto,

You tease the bull!

See Beetle's image to the left of his admirably brief response. "Bristle".

I figure that he's not going to engage with any "flea bitten varmint" of a thing until it proves itself worthy of the attention.

The Mandello might be the beginning of the diminishment of the gene pool.

The sailors' song from "The Tempest" ...

To sea boys!
And let her go hang.
She'd love not the savour of tar, nor of pitch ...
Yet a tailor might scratch her
Where'er she did itch"

Moto Guzzi - Eagle
Committee / shareholder.

 I can't help feeling a snide snicker coming on over your honest remarks and the fine verse that followed. I agree whole heartedly even though I wish no ill to anyone. Wars have been started over less :twisted




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