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 Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at

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rick pope
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JonB85
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PostSubject: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:49 am

Hi everyone, the GRiSO has been on my bucket list of bikes to own just about since I started riding 10 years ago. I finally found one for sale locally that I just looked at. I think I'm going to pull the trigger on it but just wanted to run it by the experts before doing so.

Here's the bike in question: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Normally I avoid buying bikes from dealers but the two guys who run the "motorcycle dept." are retired enthusiasts who do it for fun and I get a pretty good vibe from them. They each owned it briefly before putting it up for sale and said it rides fine with no issues. It struggled a little on startup which wasn't too unexpected as they said it hadn't been running in a few weeks but seemed to idle and rev fine once it was running. No drips, smoking, or strange smells

Onto the big thing: the valves. I know they changed over in this year starting at engine code A813524. The code on this bike is A8013748. At first, I thought this meant it was prior to the rollerisation switch but then I realized people don't seem to include the "0" when referencing engine numbers which would put this one after the change so it should be good to go in that department. Am I understanding correctly?

Other minor things I noticed: the oil breather tube on the right side is starting to crack as I've learned is a common issue so I know those will need to be replaced. I noticed what I think is a little oil seepage on the right side from what I believe is the airbox...if you're looking straight at the bike from the right side it's behind and slightly above the rear brake master cylinder. It looks like this can happen if the breather hoses are going bad and/or the oil level is on the higher side. Is that correct?

There's residue and signs of seepage at the gearbox filler plug, which I think is just the crush washer needing to be replaced, as well as around the bottom rear half of the driveshaft. It looks like it could be coming from the fluid drain plug....or is it possible it could be leaking from the rubber boot on top? Fluids are the first thing I do with every new vehicle so if it's just the crush washers then that's an easy fix.

Otherwise, it seems solid overall given the age. It has a Termi exhaust which I believe was an accessory option from MG when it was sold new. It also has a Brembo radial brake master which I know is not a cheap upgrade. One of the guys also had the spokes sealed when he owned it to fix the issue with them leaking air.

We briefly talked price before I saw the bike and was told their bottom line is $5,500 plus our state's registration fees. Does that seem fair enough?

This could be my first Guzzi. I owned a Monster S2R1000 for a few years so I'm used to the quirks of Italian bikes and know they need to be loved and massaged to operate at their full potential. It seems most of the work these need is pretty straight forward and I'm more than capable of it as long as I don't have to do anything major like pull the trans off.


And two personal concerns I have with the model: the reach is a little further forward than I'd normally prefer. I've seen it mentioned that people swap to Aprilia Mana bars to get a little more pullback. Is there enough slack in the lines if I wanted my hands closer than that? Or would I be looking at having to replace the cables? And the clutch pull is HEAVY. My Monster had a heavy clutch too but Oberon makes larger bore clutch slave cylinders that reduce the pull. Is there such an option for Grisos? I've only searched this briefly but mostly saw talk of people getting radial masters instead of changing the slave. I have a Rebel DCT now because of occasional issues with my left wrist so I worry that could flare up in the long term if I can't lighten the clutch pull.

Thanks for your input!
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ratso88
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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:48 am

JonB85, hello

I'd ask to look under one of the valve covers, ten minute job, to confirm rollerization if you are serious.
Really, I have trust issues, ask anyone.

Seems you have a good handle on the other common issues and fixes.
Not much additional to offer there on my part. Maybe mapping? Factory? Beetle? Other?

If it arrives as pictured, with attached accessories, what's not to like.
Not a huge deal breaker or anything but do the removed stock parts come with?

At $5500 it's in the "buy now" price range for me.

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 12, 2023 3:15 pm


What ratso88 said. Pop a valve cover off and confirm. If they're serious, they should let you. Make it a condition of sale if necessary.

The breather hoses are an easy replacement. An overfilled sump will blow oil into the airbox, so that would explain the seepage. A clean out will be required, and most likely the throttle bodies as well.

A radial master cylinder on the clutch will drop the pull by ~33%, and is highly recommended.

The seal on the bevel box can leak, and it will drip from the swingarm drain. The other thing you would need to address is the swingarm bearings will likely have no grease, nor the shock linkages.

If memory serves. The Mana bars don't require cable extensions, unless you add Onur's bar risers at the same time. IIRC, that will stretch the friendship.





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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 12, 2023 3:45 pm

Hey there,

I think I've seen this bike before although it's been a while.  That price is right imo.  Make sure the db killer is the Termi.

Since it's a dealer and their ad says it has rollers I'm sure it will be no problem for them to pop off a valve cover for you.  

My brother has an S2R1000 and I've ridden them back to back.  Completely different bikes!  I think you'll love the GRiSO once you give it some time.  

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Changing the clutch fluid makes a big difference and is easy to do.  That's probably most of it although I do think it might feel a little heavy to you still vs the Duc.

The "could use a tune-up" could be some PC V crap installed, it could be the spark plug caps, or it could be the db killer isn't installed.  All are pretty easy to deal with.  When I bought mine from a dealer it ran like crap too; $20 for the plug wires and $100 for Mark's map later it's the best running motorcycle I've ever owned.  

Onar's risers will help with the reach and do not require any re-cabling:


LINK


Best of luck and let us know when you pick it up!
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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:08 pm

Thanks for all of the replies. Sorry I haven't had a chance to go through and answer them yet...been a busy couple of days. I just stole away a few hours from work to go pick it up and instantly fell in love. I can see why these bikes have the following that they do.

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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:52 pm

ratso88 wrote:
JonB85, hello
Not much additional to offer there on my part. Maybe mapping? Factory? Beetle? Other?

Well I was going to do a Beetle map but in the midst of confirm rollerisation I found a Power Commander V mounted behind the left side trim piece. I'll have to do some reading to see if it's worth working with that or if I should tear it out.

ratso88 wrote:

Not a huge deal breaker or anything but do the removed stock parts come with?

Nope. They got it through auction so I only have what is attached to it. One mistake I didn't realize until I got home, and should have known better after owning a Duc, was checking for the keys and key code. I only have one key and no code so let's hope I don't loose it...or has anyone figured out how to disable the immobilizer?
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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:58 pm

beetle wrote:

What ratso88 said. Pop a valve cover off and confirm. If they're serious, they should let you. Make it a condition of sale if necessary.

They wouldn't let me tinker with it which I could understand as they seem to deal in mostly collectible type bikes but the owner was adamant it's a roller and I just confirmed. Was definitely nervous about that leap of faith...

beetle wrote:

The breather hoses are an easy replacement. An overfilled sump will blow oil into the airbox, so that would explain the seepage. A clean out will be required, and most likely the throttle bodies as well.

A radial master cylinder on the clutch will drop the pull by ~33%, and is highly recommended.


Good to know!


beetle wrote:
The seal on the bevel box can leak, and it will drip from the swingarm drain.

Thanks I will keep an eye on it and see how it goes.

beetle wrote:

The other thing you would need to address is the swingarm bearings will likely have no grease, nor the shock linkages.

Despite being a new member I knew you would mention this. I've been doing my lurking and searching and appreciate your knowledge and input  Very Happy


beetle wrote:

If memory serves. The Mana bars don't require cable extensions, unless you add Onur's bar risers at the same time. IIRC, that will stretch the friendship.

Also good to know. Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 13, 2023 4:03 pm

Dilliw wrote:
Hey there,

Make sure the db killer is the Termi.


It's not. I love the sound but I'm not really a loud bike guy. I'll see if I can source a silencer that will work with it I guess.

Dilliw wrote:


My brother has an S2R1000 and I've ridden them back to back.  Completely different bikes!  I think you'll love the GRiSO once you give it some time.  

I loved it within about 5 minutes of leaving the dealer! I think it feels like a slightly bigger and burlier version of my old S2R but a little more mature.


Dilliw wrote:


The "could use a tune-up" could be some PC V crap installed

You called it! I found it hidden away just now.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 13, 2023 4:03 pm

Remove the Power Commander and smash it with a hammer. Then check out the rest of the bike to make sure it isn't festooned with a host of other 'Performance' crap like K&N air filters etc.

PC's are crude and are usually 'Tuned' by idiots who don't know what they are doing and the mixture is set up far, far too rich. The W5AM ecu has been an open book for well over a decade. Why would you bother with an expensive widget that can only modify the simplest of parameters when the map itself is fully tuneable using a program like Tunerpro?

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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 13, 2023 4:07 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Remove the Power Commander and smash it with a hammer.

Ha will do! I've never had a bike with a PC before. Will it just revert to the standard ECU tune once I remove it?


Pete Roper wrote:

Then check out the rest of the bike to make sure it isn't festooned with a host of other 'Performance' crap like K&N air filters etc.


Yeah it has some "lifetime" BMC air filter...which surprised me when I found out it's mounted under the seat. I already have an OEM filter ordered along with all fluids and spark plugs. I can't wait to show it some love.
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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 13, 2023 4:29 pm

@Pete
he only has one key..
Can you point him to your guidance on that?
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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:13 pm

Yes, I can. I'm travelling at the moment in Victoria, heading for Adelaide but I'll be in a place to respond in a few hours to that and a few other issues to address.

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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:57 pm


Unfortunately the ECU won't revert to the standard map after the PC has been smashed to smithereens. Is there an AT as well? Most likely the map has lambda disabled.

I strongly recommend you get a dB killer for the Termi. Unless the the cat has been removed? A pipe with a cat and no dB killer is just weird.

Do you know the user code? If you don't, you can try to get your key cloned. If you do, new factory programmed keys are available. AF1 in Texas is a good bet in the US.

If you get a new factory key, you can program them if you know the user code:



1. Go to menu on the Dash, and select Diagnosis. This will prompt for the service code. GRiSO code is 12425.

2. Scroll down to Change Key and select. This prompts for your user code. Enter your user code.

3. You will be prompted to insert a current key and a timer countdown will start. Remove the key and insert a new key Display will show "Memorized Key" and countdown will continue.

4. Insert the next key and repeat. You must insert ALL keys, as this process clears all memorized keys, so you must reprogram your current keys. A maximum of 4 keys are allowed.

5. When you see Memorized Key for the last key, let the countdown go to zero.




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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:19 pm

Mark has covered the problem of only one key and no code pretty thoroughly, the problem is without the code you can't program new keys to the bike and without two factory keys you can't use the 'Code Recovery' function to insert a new user code.

While you can easily enough get a non factory key cloned to your one key and it will work to start the bike you still won't be able to re-set the code as the cloned key won't be recognised as a 'Second' key.

Now over here the locksmith I use in Canberra can clone me as many aftermarket keys as my heart desires! He can also cut factory blanks for me but for some reason cannot program them so to get them to work I have to 'Train' them to the dash using the 'Change the key' function but to do that you need to know the user code stored in the dash! You see the problem?

Now I don't know if AF1 have a tame locksmith who can program/train factory keys off the bike but if they do then that would seem to be your best bet. Having two working/recognised as different factory keys will solve all your problems as you can then use 'Code Recovery' to change your user code. Once you've done that you no longer have to worry about being stranded if the antenna goes out or someone buggers your ignition. If you loose the one key you're up for both a dashboard and a lock set which is big $'s!

Now I think my dashboard vids are up in the tech section but I'll re-post them here in case I'm mistaken.



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Chris W
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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 14, 2023 4:07 am

Hi Jon - welcome to the Ghetto!
It sounds like you are in the Raleigh area. I'm not terribly far as I'm in Wilson.
I've had my GRiSO for 4 years now and haven't found (or needed) a good Guzzi mechanic yet, so all work has been done "in house". Thanks to this website's wealth of info and great people, I've managed to perform all required maintenance with no major problems.
you're in the right place!
cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 14, 2023 11:43 am

Thanks for info on the keys! I think I'll get mine duplicated over winter just to have a spare although I know that doesn't solve the issue of not having the code. I saw on one of the other Guzzi forums that a shop in Holland, I think, can pull the code if you send them the gauge cluster so I guess that's always an option. I'm not too concerned about it though.
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Chris W wrote:
Hi Jon - welcome to the Ghetto!
It sounds like you are in the Raleigh area. I'm not terribly far as I'm in Wilson.
I've had my GRiSO for 4 years now and haven't found (or needed) a good Guzzi mechanic yet, so all work has been done "in house". Thanks to this website's wealth of info and great people, I've managed to perform all required maintenance with no major problems.
you're in the right place!
cheers

So I can bring it to your place for service then? Very Happy But yeah I'm the same way...I've always done my own work short of tire changes (tried it once; never again). Big thanks to everyone on here for the wisdom they provide. It's always great owning a vehicle that has a strong DIY community behind it!
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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:23 pm

I’ve been enjoying the bike so far. I was going to ride to work today but the battery decided to give out. I planned on replacing it soon anyway since it was looking a bit rough. No biggie but I figured I’d start on the valves and plugs while I wait for the new battery to come. What a breeze it is to work on them. I got the left side done in about half an hour. Good thing too because they were TIGHT. I couldn’t even get a .1mm feeler under any of them. Shame on the prior owners. Do I need to worry about the valve seats getting worn out or any other damage from them being so tight? I’ve been taking it easy on the bike until I get it all up to snuff but who knows how long they’ve been that way. I’m hoping this is also why it needs a little throttle for cold starts. I originally though it’s from the shitty tune although that could still be contributing.
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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:07 am

Mine needed a little throttle on cold starts too, before I got the beetle map. Now, unless it's nearly too cold to ride, it starts fine with no fiddling of the loud grip.
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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Wed Aug 02, 2023 12:55 pm

Oh the NC Guzzi rally is this weekend. It's at High Country campground near Boone. This used to be one of the better attended Guzzi rallies in the Southeast but flooding took out the previous venue and I haven't got a clue how many will show this year. But I will be there on my GRiSO for sure!

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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:40 pm

Pete Roper wrote:

Now I don't know if AF1 have a tame locksmith who can program/train factory keys off the bike but if they do then that would seem to be your best bet. Having two working/recognised as different factory keys will solve all your problems as you can then use 'Code Recovery' to change your user code. Once you've done that you no longer have to worry about being stranded if the antenna goes out or someone buggers your ignition. If you loose the one key you're up for both a dashboard and a lock set which is big $'s!

Good news here...AF1 can clone as many keys as you like if you send them your current original chipped key.  I thought I had lost 1 of my Norge keys 2 months ago while out riding the Grand Tour of Texas, so I sent them my second original one via FEDEX, a day later I had a FEDEX package with 2 cloned keys back (they look just like the ones you show here Pete) and work perfectly on ignition and panniers.  A few weeks later, I found my "lost" key in a rarely used jacket vent, so I now have 4 keys for my Norge.  They have tons of blanks at the ready so can clone ASAP.

The guys at AF1 are outstanding...if you're nearby, you can also drive in and they'll clone it for you on the spot as well.

Cheers,
Paul

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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Wed Aug 02, 2023 2:34 pm

You're lucky to have retrieved your spare key, but in the event of being left with only one original key and not knowing the user code stored in the dash, which is the case of the OP here, would the new cloned key from AF1 be recognized by the dash/ecu as a "second factory key" and allow you to recover the user code?
AF1 as been offering this key cloning service for a long time and I always thought their cloned keys had to be "trained" by the dash to be recognized as "factory keys" and, as Pete said that cannot be done with only one factory key. Unless you know the user code stored in the dash, of course.

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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:13 pm

You can't train a new key without knowing the user code.

Some cloned keys apparrently have a clone type chip which is different to a *Normal* T5 and can't be programmed through the dash. The ones I mentioned in the thread the other day though appear to have the same chip as the original keys. As far as I can make out though these cannot be cloned by the locksmith and need to be done through the dash.

I hasten to add I am NOT a locksmith or any sort of expert in such things and am just relaying, as I understand it, the information imparted to me by the rather indifferent employee at the locksmith I usually use in Canberra.

What I do know for sure is that my 'Cloned' key is not recognised as a second 'Separate' key by the bike for the purpose of changing the code using the 'Code Recovery' function.

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PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:57 am

Speedfrog wrote:
You're lucky to have retrieved your spare key, but in the event of being left with only one original key and not knowing the user code stored in the dash, which is the case of the OP here, would the new cloned key from AF1 be recognized by the dash/ecu as a "second factory key" and allow you to recover the user code?
AF1 as been offering this key cloning service for a long time and I always thought their cloned keys had to be "trained" by the dash to be recognized as "factory keys" and, as Pete said that cannot be done with only one factory key. Unless you know the user code stored in the dash, of course.

The cloned keys I received from AF1, and I checked both, work in the ignition to start the motorcycle and open the panniers and the seat lock.  I haven't done any further training beyond testing them to see if they start the bike. I'm probably wrong, but I just assumed that all of the functions of an OEM key are built into the cloned key, maybe that's not the case.

Is there a specific function I should test to "train" the cloned key to act 100% like an OEM key, i.e. beyond the capability of just starting the bike (and opening the panniers of course).

I feel kind of special having 4 keys now... Smile

AF1 charges $40 USD per key, with overnight FEDEX service in the U.S....quite a fair deal considering that it costs probably double or triple that to get it done with an OEM Guzzi key...
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Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Empty
PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1Fri Aug 04, 2023 4:48 pm

Folks here with more knowledge will correct me if I'm wrong but I think the only function that requires the 2 OE keys is the user code recovery.
In turn, the user code is only required to (1)-start the bike with a key that hasn't been programmed and recognized by the dash and (2)-program a new key to be recognized by the dash. It is part of the anti-theft system that allows the immobilizer to be enabled/disabled.

All bikes come with 2 keys from the factory, call them key1 and key2 and with apparently each their own "fingerprint".

The keys that AF1 sent you were "cloned" from the one key you sent them (ie. OE key1) and apparently already programmed to be recognized by the dash.
Pete confirmed that his cloned key is exactly that, it is read by the dash as the same key(key1) it was cloned from.
Pete Roper wrote:
What I do know for sure is that my 'Cloned' key is not recognized as a second 'Separate' key by the bike for the purpose of changing the code using the 'Code Recovery' function.

Where the situation becomes delicate is if you only had 1 original key, you didn't know the user code and needed to program another key. You cannot program a key through the dash without knowing the user code.

Apparently AF1 key services allows you to circumvent that by pre-programming the cloned keys to be recognized by the dash and the bike to be started normally.

To answer the question that was ask earlier, whether the AF1 cloned key would be recognized by the dash as a second OE key (key2), you would have to try the user code recovery function (pretending you don't know the user code stored in the dash!) using the one OE key (key1) you sent them and one cloned key.

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Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Empty
PostSubject: Re: Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at   Potential new owner looking for thoughts on a GRiSO I just looked at Icon_minitime1

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