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 Agostini for GRiSO

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Wed May 13, 2015 12:49 am

Good job Al.
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akshaydeo
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Wed May 13, 2015 1:45 am

So, what happens if this map is run on a bike without the extra bend/length? Major performance issues or can it be tweaked to run ok?

Good job on the exhaust btw. Thumbs Up
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Wed May 13, 2015 4:03 am

One thing that is important for people to realise is that there is NO magic bullet.

All Dyno figures I tend to take with a grain of salt because most customers want to see maximum HP and Torque figures and consequently figures tend to be optimistic.

From there on it is vital that folks realise that the whole tuning/performance thing relies on the entire motive unit being looked at HOLISTICALLY! There is no 'Magic Map' or 'Magic Bullet' that Mark, or Al or anyone else can offer that can simply be dropped into any bike and it will suddenly turn into a fire breathing monster.

By a gradual process of experimentation a whole host of people have managed to discover 'What Works' and 'What Doesn't' with various bikes and the W5AM controller, be they 2V or 8V motors. I like to think I've made a small contribution but generally I, like most of the people here, am simply wandering along holding on to the coat tails and sucking my thumb, (When I'm not sitting rocking autistically in a corner!).

At the end of the day though there is a need for anyone who wishes to *Improve* their motorbike to aproach it in a logical, methodical, manner and examine evidence and claims about *Improvements* being spruiked by others. This applies as much here as anywhere else but if you read the assorted threads on tuning and mods you will find that there is a remarkable consistency in the documented evidence of what seems to work. Long, comparatively well baffled, (Read: Quiet!) pipe. Log built map, possibly tweaked on the dyno but only on a dyno where the operator will listen to what YOUR want rather than what they will tell you they want! And lastly no PROMISE of miracles, especially in terms of absurd HP gains!

The knowledge and experience we gain here is essentially given for free! I find that an incredible resource and am very, very happy and humbled to be part of it.

Pete
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akshaydeo
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Wed May 13, 2015 4:17 am

I agree Pete. I don't know if your post was in response to mine or just a post in general, but I do understand that just a specific map is not going to magically change things.. especially if the other parts are out of tune.

I've been going through all the threads and I've decided to get the carbotune/carbmate so I can balance the throttle bodies myself. The dealer that I bought my bike from here in Holland is supposed to be very professional but I do want to be sure that the TB's are balanced. Reading about all the stories regarding new bikes makes me a bit suspicious.. plus I will get to learn as well.

The reason I asked about Al's map is because I planned on getting the same ago muffler. I am not into loud exhausts myself and am also not looking for the most torque or HP. Like you said, I just want it to work (well).

Akshay
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Wed May 13, 2015 4:27 am

Working well and good power and torque always go hand in hand but there are ALWAYS compromises and while you may be able to get a bit more of one thing or the other by fiddling around the edges what is most important to MOST people is 'Rideability'.

I honestly have no idea if my bike is more 'Powerful' now than it was in any of its previous incarnations. What I do know is that it is a joy to ride, goes like a cut cat, uses less fuel than it ever did before and will still exceed 220kph if I want it to. (Which in all honesty I don't unless I'm being a complete wanker and seeing how shit works!). I don't feel the need to brag about HP figures because when a customer brings in a TV4 I can get all the mindlessly stupid jollies for speed, acceleration and wheelies and stoppies that any 60 year old bloke will ever need! I just likes my GRiSO to run G-O-O-O-D!!!!

Pete
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Wed May 13, 2015 5:15 am

Ashkay, Al's setup is very similar to the Mistral Hi-Pipe. The extra length makes a massive difference. The flow characteristics of the two silencers are probably slightly different, but it's not much of a leap to think that a standard Ago would run very close to what it does with the Mistral Hi-Pipe map.

I think Al has run the stock Ago with the Hi-Pipe map. Right Al?
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The Saint
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Wed May 13, 2015 7:05 pm

Mark I think you are right, it should work quite well with the hi-mistral, but maybe not so with the low setup. I don't have the short connecting pipe anymore to try and I don't see the reason to because it is simply brilliant now. In saying that, when I tried your hi-pipe map, it worked with my low setup. It was smooth, it started easily and had very good fuel economy. Even so, this current map I started from scratch with certain outcomes in mind. The ignition table is based on a slightly modified version from the hi-map, positive throttle movement table is yours, apart from that it's all G803 with mods I did to the main fuel and delta. I will send you the file as soon as I can. Try it before you start analysing the map.

The mod to the exhaust is simple and cheap that results in very linear power delivery as can be seen in the torque table above. I recommend this before playing with the map as no amount of fiddling with the fuel has made such a positive difference. This was NOT simply my clever idea, but thanks to the wealth of knowledge and creative people here that are willing to experiment, I was able to make an educated decision and take a chance that this will work for me. In this case it has exceeded my expectations.

To clarify. I was after certain characteristics, not only outright power. Read the post on the previous page. These characteristics may not be what others want. Roper is right, there is no magic bullet, you have to listen to the advice of what works or doesn't, experiment and find what works for you. The numbers obtained on the dyno are irrelevant unless compared to something, a base line or another machine. It is a great tool to see and compare the differences after each mod, using the same dyno on the same day under same conditions. It can be a great diagnostics tool as well.

My current setup:
no dbk  (the longer s-bent pipe has quietened the exhaust substantially)
no catcon
inlet 6 thou
exhaust 6 thou
no snorkel  (more midrange and flatter curve it seems)

I am very glad to have this privilege to learn from all those that are willing to experiment and those that contribute here with their knowledge that took years to acquire not to mention the costs associated. A good result and a bad result have equal value when it comes to learning, keep experimenting and keep sharing.


Alan
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Wed May 13, 2015 7:14 pm

Good stuff Al. Interesting re the snorkel. All the maps I've released were built without the snorkel in. I wonder if those using my maps would benefit from removing the snorkel? I found the bloody thing a thundering nuisance.
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The Saint
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Wed May 13, 2015 7:25 pm

Mark, they probably would benefit, plus you get some extra space in there. 1hp less up the top is a small price to pay.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Wed May 13, 2015 7:49 pm

Bugger! I ike my snorkel, (Sniff!)
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Wed May 13, 2015 8:13 pm

Whip it out Pete. cheers
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Ralf z
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Wed May 13, 2015 8:38 pm

beetle wrote:
Whip it out Pete. cheers

I'm hope your talking about the snorkel. scratch
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Wed May 13, 2015 8:46 pm

Of course.

Shocked You didn't think I meant?? Ewwww!
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Wed May 13, 2015 10:21 pm

Well Mark S has the Green Horror at the moment. When I get back from WA and get it back I'll try it before I embark on my midwinter wrenchfest of rollerising the poor old shitter and fitting the thermostat, (Which is going to be a right 'Rhymes with Runt' of a job!).

I enquired of AF1 as to the availability of the cooler air dam as a spare part and got informed that Piaggio USA has TEN of them in stock! What is wrong with these people? They have TEN air dams, a part that to need replacement you'd expect the bike to be a complete write off in the event of a crash, but they only have an odd and inadequate number of big end shells! It really plumbs a Mariner Trench of bonehead stupidity!

Pete
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little750
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Thu May 14, 2015 1:56 am

Anybody need a snorkel, I may have one to spare in the not to distant future.
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The Saint
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Mon May 18, 2015 7:02 pm

Mark, I am curious to know if you had a chance to run the map and whether it works well with your set up since you have a full custom built exhaust.

Also, to alleviate any confusion, the main fuel table was polished up using the left cylinder only so the afr you see is left only. Subsequently, the right was checked briefly and I only made few minor adjustments as it was very close. I ran out of time to log each load point so hopefully some minor improvements will be possible when I go back and do that. Following that, I will do a couple of runs to see what difference it makes when it is measured at the collector.

If I get time, I will make few ignition tables to test as well.

Al
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Mon May 18, 2015 7:33 pm

Al, sorry mate, but no. I haven't been near the GRiSO for almost a month. I'm getting a bit anxious. affraid
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The Saint
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Mon May 18, 2015 7:42 pm

That is truly not good for your health Mark. Mentally and physically. Hope all is well.

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Mon May 18, 2015 8:34 pm

Just super busy with work (eek!) and family stuff.
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John Lyon
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:02 am

The Saint wrote:
Mark, they probably would benefit, plus you get some extra space in there. 1hp less up the top is a small price to pay.

Exactly.  I use the space gained to carry my tire repair kit (just like my BMW had).
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AOAM
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:47 pm

The Saint wrote:
The exhaust is done. Here is the result:



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Notice the bungs for the O2 sensors. They are well hidden away from view.


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The s-bend and the extra length made a tremendous difference to the performance and the overall feel. The resonance buzz I had at 3000-3300 rpm immediately disappeared before even touching the map. No wonder the hi-rise mistral works so well.

Today the GRiSO spent the day on the dyno. I used my laptop and tuner pro to make the changes and the guzzidiag to read the tps. Each load position was logged and subsequently polished up. The delta was surprisingly very close so I only made minor changes. I am very happy with the result and I have learned a lot as I was able to participate.


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Interestingly, removing the snorkel made 2.5 extra hp at 4000 rpm but lost some at the top. See the graph above, the red line is without the snorkel.



Is that a BRZ in the first picture? I've got a '13 in DGM. Great car.
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The Saint
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:41 am

Yes matey. Great car and very comfortable as a daily driver for what it is.
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waterbottle
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:22 pm

Hey Alan, home again after a busy couple of weeks, I'll try to get your map in to give it a try this weekend, and I'll whip my snorkel out too Laughing
Good work on the pipe Thumbs Up
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waterbottle
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:39 pm

Tried Allan's map.
Bike is standard with the mistral Hi pipe , valves set at 6 in and 8 Ex. Can't really fault it anywhere. Good from a cold start with no hesitation ( I've left the co trim at zero) Smooth throughout with little vibration.
If anything it felt a little flat under hard acceleration, but it's blowing a gale here today, so punching into a headwind probably caused that.  
I don't know if I'm good enough to pick the difference between Beetles map and this one but it's good enough to satisfy this little black duck.
Cheers Allan
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The Saint
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Agostini for GRiSO   Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:02 am

You are welcome Ron. I am glad you had a go at it. Just for info, my valves are set at 6 in 6 ex, no cat and no dbk. It is not as frugal as mark's hi-mistral map. It dumps quite a bit of fuel on decal which produces an amazing tune, at least with the Ago, and has hardly any engine braking. It is still good for around 210km before the fuel light comes on, and that's not conservative riding. It's not quite finished yet, but it's close so I'm putting it off till the house is finished.

Al
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