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Wildhenry
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PostSubject: Starter motor failure?   Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:40 am

Hi All,
Happy New Year!

Having been a cold cold winter this year the GRiSO has not seen any action for some months.
Last time I tried to have a ride the battery was flat so I invested in on of those Lithium mini jump start power packs.
(I have a garage with no power so the battery goes flat, the power getting drained from the alarm)
So I thought great, no problem now I have the power pack....not so!
Tried to start the bike this morning (cold but clear,dry and bright and a nice day for a short ride I thought)
Connected the power pack, full power came on with all the correct lights on the instruments....pushed the starter and CLUNK!
Tried jump leads from my car (healthy battery) same thing....CLUNK!
Am I right in guessing that the started motor has jammed or failed?

Cheers,
Wildhenry
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Tolle09
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:34 am

Hi Henry, you could try putting the bike in gear and rocking it backwards and forwards once or twice and then try it, with the clutch in or in neutral of course, and doubly check the battery connections are tightened enough.
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:28 am

Wildhenry, could also be the classic "no start" issue experienced by many of us. First check the connections as suggested by Tolle09, then if that does not improve things, do the starter relay bypass trick (details somewhere on this forum). If all else fails, report back here and we will attept to assist further.
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Wildhenry
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:11 am

Thanks .....
I'll give the old rockin method a go and check connections.
Won't have time till next weekend but will report back as and when.

Ta!
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Maddara
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:15 pm

Wildhenry - had the same happen outside a Honda shop here in Canberra - most shameful - after pulling the starter motor a few times which turned out fine - turned out to be some junk under the starter button - quick hit with some electronic cleaner - no probs.
Mike
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Midlifecrisis
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:04 am

...and you may well blow the 15A fuse (fuse 3?) under the seat. I've been having the same problems, have done the bypass circuit, but think the starter motor pinion (correct term?) is jamming, hence the rocking it backwards and forwards in gear (used to have to hit my old Triumph Spitfire starter with a spanner for the same reason back in the day!).

This (these?) problems well covered here and on other GRiSO forums

BTW Henry I'm only up the road from you in Haywards Heath.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:29 am

Unlikely to be the starter. Do the lights/dash go out when you press the starter button and then come on again with the dash doing its 'Sweep' when the button is released, (Or after four seconds depending on the system/model.) if so it will either be a dead battery or dirty contacts on the battery or at the main earth point on the frame most likely.

Pete
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Street
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:26 pm

I second what Pete said, unlikely to be your starter. I had the same problem awhile back and suspected the starter as I was able to measure what I thought would be sufficient voltage from the battery to start the bike. I even borrowed another starter, known to be a good one, and installed it, but still no go. I had also checked for weak connections on battery cables and ground (earth) and found nothing amiss. It turned out to be the battery after all which just didn't have quite enough oomph to do the job. I was surprised it was the battery since, as I said, I was getting a pretty good voltage reading off of it, but it just wasn't enough. In my mind everything pointed to the starter. Maybe someone can explain to me why the GRiSO seems to want/need a lot of juice to start. Fortunately, after several hundred starts since the problem arose, my starter is still running strong. In the future I will always suspect the battery first.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:01 pm

The issue is that the ECU has a failsafe. If the voltage drops below a certain point (11.5V?) when cranking the system will shut down. This is to protect against voltage spiking of the ECU when the engine catches and the alternator starts to pump out power.

Simply because a battery shows 12V at rest doesn't mean that it won't drop below the critical level when the starter is drawing big current. W=V x A and all that.

Pete
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FreshEgg
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:30 pm

I think my battery finally shat the bed. Either that or bad connection at the negative terminal, AGAIN!

In terms of a replacement, anybody had any experience with the offerings from Shorai / Antigravity / Ballistic ?? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I really don't want to replace it with the OEM Yuasa as it has always been puking battery acid or similar so that the negative terminal is a constant mass of green oxidized smegma. I'm tired of cleaning the battery post or push-starting the bike.

Thanks for your suggestions.
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Street
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:12 pm

Pete, thanks for the explanation. As with most things, I had no idea.

Jin (FreshEgg)), the problems you describe are new to me too. I LOVE the sealed batteries, have had a few different brands (currently Cycle-Tron) and have never had any leakage, corrosion etc. And, as you know, I ride pretty hard in all weather conditions. Makes me wonder if there's something else going on. As evidenced by previous posts, this forum is definitely the place for answers. There's probably someone out there (Roper, Beetle, Ghezzi, Steak) with an alternate idea. Stay tuned...
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f-man
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:40 pm

Hello Freshegg;


i spend my GRiSO last week a lithium ion battery. It`s light weight and the bike is starting preety good, although we have just about 3° Celsius here in Germany. Orderd it [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Well, is this battery really good? Ask me at the end of this year.

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Sven
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FreshEgg
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:45 pm

Thanks, Pete.

I hosed her off after that deluge we rode thru on Saturday. Punched the starter to make sure it wasn't drowned and it started fine. Put it away....

Couple of days later, and all i got was the familiar CLICK.....BZZZZZ-TIC-TIC-TIC (Solenoid and fuel pump, respectively, yes?)

Alternately, Mr. GRiSO is pissed with me as i have been wrapping me loins around a 2007 BMW R1200S (which i was too shy to disclose to you guys at breakfast, last Saturday). Like..."fuck you, man. I'm not just a rain bike!"
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:53 pm

I have a Shorai LFX18A1-BS12 in Bella, 2.5 years old now.
It is the highest out put battery in their smallest case offered. Weighs less than 1kg.
Only problem I encountered was not riding for 6 months, but frequently starting the bike for 10 seconds so some admirer could hear the (loud) exhaust. When it was dead flat (reading 0V) I took it back and they re-charged it. I've since bought a small (non-desulphating) Optimate 2 charger and will give it a tickle if the charge drops below 12.8v on the dash.

The distributor told me I should have used the next case size and larger output battery. My Shorai is supposedly rated at 18A/h and 270CCA. Considering the whole Ducati range (600cc to 1200cc) run on a Yuasa YT12B-BS, which is really a 10A/h 215CCA rated battery, I shouldn't have any problems with my 940cc lump, and I haven't.

If you go with this my experience has been thus, and I was told. The Lithium battery initially offers resistance to accepting charge, this resistance breaks down the more you start and then ride the bike. Initially you will see 15v charging on your dash while riding, this will come down to 14v over time. Anytime you turn the key on and you will see your battery holding 13.2 to 13.6 volts, normal.
Anything below 12.8v you are approaching danger territory. Re-charge.

My small battery was chosen due to custom mods and space restrictions, I took a gamble and so far so good.

Cheers, Wayne J

Ps. I did see a youtube vid on a Lithium battery in snowy winter conditions. Initially it wouldn't start, owner thumbed the starter for a bit which causes the battery to heat itself up. Hit it again after 5 minutes, waited and then again after another 5 min interval, Vroom! No idea why, just saying .................... not cold enough here for me to experience that.
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FreshEgg
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:54 pm

Sven: Thank You.

The savings in weight with LiPo batteries are astounding! Now you also have a place to carry a sandwich. (Funny thing: my favorite Guzzi, the early Daytonas and Sport 1100 also has a place to store sandwiches - putting those models firmly on the lifetime bucket list)

But seriously, what capacity LiPo battery and is it enough to improve on starting with the OEM Yuasa battery? Or would you go bigger?
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FreshEgg
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:02 pm

Nailed it, Ghezzi. Thats the background info I need. Thanks so much!

BTW: Really dig your Bellagio hot rod. Someday I'm going to ask you how to fabricate a hub to adapt the CARC drive to a set of forged aluminum wheels like OZ....but that belongs in your wheel thread.

Cheers.
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:07 pm

FreshEgg, if you buy the largest physical size Shorai with the highest output, you will still save weight and space, and kick start your bike into the middle of the next millennium.

LFX21A6-BS12 is 1374g and has 315CCA, your standard Yuasa YTX20CH-BS has only 270 CCA
LFX36L3-BS12 is 2259g and has 540CCA, check its physical dimensions as it may still fit in your battery box. These batteries are smaller than stock items and come with multiple sticky backed rubber pads for secure fitting.

Hey, I'll make you a set of carbon wheels easy.
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Street
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:34 pm

FreshEgg wrote:
...Alternately, Mr. GRiSO is pissed with me as i have been wrapping me loins around a 2007 BMW R1200S (which i was too shy to disclose to you guys at breakfast, last Saturday). Like..."fuck you, man. I'm not just a rain bike!"

Well, this adds another wrinkle to your story. I didn't know you'd been cheating on him (GRiSO), and us (Guzzistis), and who knows who else. I'm glad you came clean, I hope you feel better about yourself, but of course we have to wonder whether we can ever trust you to be honest with us again...I think your GRiSO is reacting - like a cat who pisses in your shoes for some perceived slight, or a dog who shits on your prized Persian carpet if you've failed to pay him enough attention lately (or a wife who...), you're going to have to regain our trust and respect. Put your GRiSO battery on a good battery charger and give it a good slam and then pay your penance. And bring that R1200 around in the next few days so we can get a good look at it. We say we don't discriminate, but we're lying. If it ain't a GRiSO, it ain't SHIT! GRiSO has a right to be pissed at you! Twisted Evil
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tocino
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:35 am

Street wrote:
We say we don't discriminate, but we're lying. If it ain't a GRiSO, it ain't SHIT! GRiSO has a right to be pissed at you! Twisted Evil

Tough love. Cruel but fair Smile


I understand he also nailed your wife's head to a coffee table. Isn't that true Mrs O' Tracy?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Well he did do that, yeah. He was a hard man. Vicious but fair

...

Doug. I was terrified of him; everyone was terrified of Doug. I've seen grown men pull their own heads of rather than see Doug. Even Dinsdale was frightened of Doug.

What did he do?

[long pause]

He used sarcasm. He knew all the tricks: dramatic irony, metaphor, pathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire.
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plantboy
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:48 pm

tocino wrote:
Street wrote:
We say we don't discriminate, but we're lying. If it ain't a GRiSO, it ain't SHIT! GRiSO has a right to be pissed at you! Twisted Evil

Tough love. Cruel but fair Smile


I understand he also nailed your wife's head to a coffee table. Isn't that true Mrs O' Tracy?

............
[long pause]

He used sarcasm. He knew all the tricks: dramatic irony, metaphor, pathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire.
Very good Tocino, but I think the spoken word was 'bathos'.   I remember looking it up about 40 years ago. jocolor
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tocino
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:49 pm

Ah right. Pathos doesn't make sense in the context.
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FreshEgg
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:36 pm

To appease Mister GRiSO I ordered the anti-gravity EVO2 12-cell compact LiFePo, today. Candidates that were considered in the table below.

What I learned was that lithium batteries offer great cranking power in short burst (CCA) for their weight but look to have poor "capacity" (Amp/Hour). The "Pb Equivalent" Amp-Hr rating is pretty deceiving. Apparently, you don't need the later to start your bike...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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FreshEgg
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:05 am

Street wrote:
We say we don't discriminate, but we're lying. If it ain't a GRiSO, it ain't SHIT! GRiSO has a right to be pissed at you!

Tough love. Cruel but fair SmileTwisted Evil


tocino wrote:
I understand he also nailed your wife's head to a coffee table. Isn't that true Mrs O' Tracy? Twisted Evil

That is some good horizontal thinking, there, MoFos! Totally freaked me out there for a second before I realized it was satire, a Monty Python quote.

Thought we were going down some un-redeemable, misogynistic road...but only just for a minute. Should have known what it was, as Monty Python, Frank Zappa and Gilbert Shelton's "Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers" gave me much sustenance through the teenage years. Also that would be pretty inconsistent with the "culture" of this forum:

(1) A call goes out for sexy pics and tough chick, Michelle Rodriguez showa up with a big machine gun along with a clutch-poppin Polish babe lofting the front wheel of her GRiSO. (Fuck Yeah!)

I like this place that Steak made.
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Wildhenry
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:25 am

Hi All,
Thanks for your help.....and battery info (I really dig this forum)
Problem solved.
Yep you guessed it..... dead battery!
It seems it's nearly always the cause with starting issues.
I knew the battery did not have enough power to start the bike but what baffled me was neither my Lithium power pack mini jump start  
      ('Floureon' high power model) AND my healthy car battery would not work either ....it seems that the jump leads I used from my car battery are too thin!
Does this make any sense and does the GRiSO require more battery power than other bikes?
I am about to buy a 'Motobatt' gel battery,I had one on my Buell and it was really reliable.
Has anybody tried one of these?

Cheers,
Wildhenry
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Starter motor failure?   Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:04 pm

Hi Henry,
Like anything research is the key ........................ and buyer beware.
I did a lot of battery research some years ago, as a result I keep a few Yuasa items on hand.
Motobatt was one of the better batteries on offer here in Australia, but when you read their fine print there are still quite a few that "Don't meet OEM specification".

Many cheap offerings claim to be Gel, they are NOT. Majority are AGM (Absorbed Glass Matt).
Genuine Gel batteries are not suitable for automotive (start up) use.

Bike shops here only sell cheap shit from China, and Battery World will flog cheap $80 copies of the Yuasa, for Yuasa's price of $240.
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