12425 - Established June, 2013 - all GRiSO, all the time...
Starter motor failure?
Posts : 2693
Join date : 2013-05-28
Age : 55
|Subject: Re: Starter motor failure? Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:50 pm|| |
MotoBatts work just fine and come in high speed, cold cranking yellow.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]2012 MOTO GUZZI GRiSO 1200SE2013 MOTO GUZZI STELVIO 1200NTX - Orange Blossom Special
Posts : 163
Join date : 2014-03-17
Age : 65
|Subject: Re: Starter motor failure? Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:24 pm|| |
- Steak wrote:
- MotoBatts work just fine and come in high speed, cold cranking yellow.
+1 ......... trickled whenever garaged, replaced the original battery when fuse B started to blow too often on start up ......... no problems since[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
|Subject: Re: Starter motor failure? Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:09 pm|| |
I stand by my original statement on research. And some brands including Motobatt don't always meet OEM specs.
Point in case, GRiSO OEM battery is a Yuasa YTX20CH-BS which has 270 CCA.
The Motobatt MBTX16U only has 250 CCA. These are the specs, the true written facts, and I have seen written in fine print on Motobatt documents, "Does not meet OEM specification"
However, as I have stated in other threads Moto Guzzi use bigger stronger batteries for a given task/load than most other motorcycle manufacturers, so the Motobatt should cope.
Posts : 251
Join date : 2014-04-23
|Subject: Re: Starter motor failure? Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:23 pm|| |
How did you secure your Motbatt, the one I looked at and supposedly the replacement for a GRiSO did not have a recess to fit the battery securing clamp?
Couldn't be bothered modifying the bracket so stuck with a Yuasa which are a great product.
Posts : 163
Join date : 2014-03-17
Age : 65
|Subject: Re: Starter motor failure? Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:53 pm|| |
you're right, it doesn't have a recess for the clamp, so its in-situ clampless ........... the front underside of the saddle (when fitted) appears to be a 'just right' snug fit with the battery and I'm confident that the seat is keeping the battery in place quite securely
Posts : 4641
Join date : 2014-03-13
Age : 66
|Subject: Re: Starter motor failure? Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:47 pm|| |
OK, my apologies for the length of this, but now is the right time to bring it out - it's a document I wrote some years back after going through some research at work...
The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
Let’s start with the Bad…
Some years ago a purchased a brand new 1200 Sport (2 Valve). The year was 2007, the month was November. The battery as fitted was a Yuasa lead acid type. It had been a bit “sad” for the last 12 months and required an overnight charge on a day before I would be riding. The ability to hold its charge was decreasing, until it got to the stage where 2 days after being last used it had forgotten what it was supposed to do!
Now for the ugly bit…
Last Thursday, having received the regular “fill ‘er up mate” from the charger the night before, I rode to work. No issues there, just 42 km of fun. Went and did the daily grind. At the end, threw a leg over the bike and started for home base - still no issues there. I got home, killed the ignition while I opened the shed, got back on the bike and all she gave me was a clickety, click click when I gave her the thumb. Lucky I was strong enough to push it into the shed.
Battery “looked” OK on the multi meter, so I put it on the charge to see if recovery was possible. An hour later, all should have been in a better place, but no – still only clickety, click click. Battery finally died. OK to say I was miffed was a bit of an understatement - 6 years out of lead acid battery – I had been ripped off and something bad!
Good bit coming…
I had been doing some research for better batteries at work and had convinced myself that the “supposedly new” arrival of LiFePO4 (Lithium-Ferrous-Phosphate) batteries was the way forward. I had a shortlist of who was selling what battery, and where and for how much.
Having no choice, I lashed out and purchased a brand new Lithium battery, put it in “Black Betty” and the immediate response was a very quick start (no clickety, click click shenanigans) and a satisfying idle. In fact she sounded much better at idle than she had for a while, much smoother. Problem solved, I reckon.
The Technical Bit:
LiFePO4 battery technology has been around for 20 years. Used primarily by the US Military to power anything that needs batteries. However to us mere mortals, it is a new thing, with availability and quality only recently coming to the fore.
Lead acid batteries have been around for a long time. Generally these come in two formats: deep cycle and starter type batteries. As the name implies, these batteries are based on the interaction of lead plates being immersed in some acid. AGM and Gel batteries are based on the same technology, with the acid being in a gel (instead of a liquid – gel battery) or contained within the matting of the separator between the lead plates (AGM). When the battery is dead, there is an issue with disposing of the acid and the lead (lead is poisonous). Did I mention the weight of the battery?
The battery in my bike was a Yuasa YTX20-CHBS. This is the same as fitted to most (if not all) CARC bikes. This battery weighs 5.0 kg and while rated at 20 AH (Ampere Hours) which specifically means it can deliver 20 Amps for 1 hour, or 10 Amps for 2 hours, or 1 Amp for 20 hours – you get the picture? Also this battery can deliver 270 CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) for starting applications. This is the bit most of us are concerned with, as it is the CCA that gets you favourite Guzzi from an inert object into a vibrating awesome sounding beast, ready to take on a round Australia trip in typical Italian style.
There is a downside to the CCA rating though. All lead acid batteries (to my knowledge, which is highly limited) have a positive temperature coefficient. What this means, is that as the battery heats up (you need a tune up as your favourite ride didn’t start first go) the internal resistance of you battery increases. This means that the next time you press the starter button there is less CCA available to your starter because of this higher internal resistance. Chances are, if your battery is ageing, your next attempt at starting will probably only just work before the battery calls it a night. When this happens, a bump start, a replacement battery or a good recharge will be the cure. None of these are palatable, especially when this always happens at the bottom of the hill, and never at the top!
Lithium Batteries are different. If you don’t believe me, just pick one up. The first thing you will notice is how light they are. In my case, my new Lithium battery weighs in at 1.1 kg. That is only 22% of the original a saving of 2.9 kg (boy are we gonna go faster now that all this weight has been eliminated). I purchased an SSB LH14-BS from Batteries Direct in Peakhurst. The smart ones will notice that I replaced a 20 AH battery with a 14 AH – what gives?
The Lithium battery has a couple of features not present in lead acid batteries. Firstly the CCA for this battery is 425 Amps. That’s 57% higher than the original Yuasa battery. The other brilliant thing is that the Lithium batteries have negative temperature coefficients. This means that when you don’t get to start your beast the first time, the battery has heated up some (due to the initial attempt at starting) but the internal resistance decreases. What this gives you on the next start is more CCA. Yep, you got it folks, something for nothing. Therefore, if at first you don’t succeed (in starting), a better attempt is only seconds away. I don’t need a battery to supply modest amounts of current for a long time (if I did, I would get a deep cycle battery), I need a battery to put some life into a Guzzi so I can “go forth and enjoy”.
While the prices of LiFePO4 batteries are yet to reach commodity levels, there is a huge benefit in going to this technology. No lead, no acid, less weight, more CCA, smaller physically and safer all round for everyone. They can be recharged to 80% of their capacity in around 6 minutes with the correct charger. Pretty much any battery charger can be used WITH THE EXCEPTION OF BATTERY CHARGERS THAT HAVE DE-SUPLHURISING CIRCUITS. De-Sulphurising circuits (only in lead acid batteries from what I know) kill Lithium batteries. Hell, you don’t even need a battery charger, a 12 Volt power supply will work just as well, or even another battery hooked up to it.
Tony Mowbray – MGOA NSW
Just my opinion, that's all.
Posts : 76
Join date : 2014-08-26
Age : 73
|Subject: Re: Starter motor failure? Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:58 am|| |
Wow! That's some battery info there!
I didn't realize how much technology was involved.
Posts : 69
Join date : 2015-01-29
|Subject: Re: Starter motor failure? Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:54 am|| |
Bewildered by battery bollux. Must remenber not to ask oz1200guzzi any questions about batteries. Very informative tho. Me? When it's fucked, get another one.
Posts : 4641
Join date : 2014-03-13
Age : 66
|Subject: Re: Starter motor failure? Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:31 pm|| |
Wayne has documented moving the main earth point from the stud under the starter cover to the gearbox/crankcase bolt/stud, just above the original earth point. Did this yesterday and instead of 12.1 Volts on the dash, I now get 12.6 Volts - wow a decent earth at last.
I suggest you lot do the same on your bikes - can't beat a good earth...
Posts : 113
Join date : 2015-12-01
Age : 45
|Subject: Re: Starter motor failure? Mon May 23, 2016 7:15 pm|| |
- FreshEgg wrote:
- I think my battery finally shat the bed. Either that or bad connection at the negative terminal, AGAIN!
In terms of a replacement, anybody had any experience with the offerings from Shorai / Antigravity / Ballistic ?? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I really don't want to replace it with the OEM Yuasa as it has always been puking battery acid or similar so that the negative terminal is a constant mass of green oxidized smegma. I'm tired of cleaning the battery post or push-starting the bike.
Thanks for your suggestions.
I've had a Ballistic in my Honda 599 for about 4 years now and its working like a champ but I always bring the battery inside during Chicago winters. BTW....I've never had to do a push-start on a bike yet (knock on wood) how exactly is that feat performed on a GRiSO?
Posts : 1781
Join date : 2015-02-02
Age : 59
|Subject: Re: Starter motor failure? Mon May 23, 2016 7:42 pm|| |
Easy- Peasy - I think you must have about 10.5 volts showing, Steep hill, 2nd gear, clutch in, push like fuck, release clutch as fat arse hits seat, doca doca doca brrrrrrmmmm.
( I did buy a new battery same day, cheaper than Falling off a heavy bike while push starting
Starter motor failure?