GRiSO Startus Interuptus

Dave you are right - was trying to explain that if you splice in a big thick wire in parallel then you will drop the voltage loss along 95% of the route & it won't all get lost again in the final 5% ....but was in too much hurry to get it technically correct (as usual)....

Kiwi_Roy wrote:

Yes replace the wire but on your model you are probably losing most across the ignition switch and the wire to and fro.
Better to snip the yellow wire feeding the relay and feed it direct from a new fuse at the battery, that's the usual fix.

That's what we did in addition. But without crimping on the thin wire.

paulbrice wrote:

Dave you are right - was trying to explain that if you splice in a big thick wire in parallel ....

Maybe I got that wrong, but to connect one wire with another doesn't mean parallel. That's inline.

Georgios,
So now you have a new feed to the yellow wire near the relays.
And a new fatter wire from the relay to the solenoid
And you taped up the other yellow wire so it cannot short to chassis
The original small wire from relay to solenoid is not connected either end.

you should not have any more starter issues

Roy,

exactly, that´s what we did. Except that we went from the battery directly to the relay. And no more starter issues.

What we also found is that the starter button needs to be pressed a little more firmly compared to japanese bikes. I would like to open it up and see if I can improve something.

Giorgios, that is, in essence, the normal fix. I hope you fused that wire to the battery?

Toni,

yes I did. 15 Ampere fuse.

Should be good, but keep a 20A on hand for that time it "might" blow - it's been known to happen before. I used to have a 10A fuse and then (at a most inconvenient time) it blew, now upgraded.

Thanks, will put some of them in my tool bag.

A little more information on the solenoids - More than you want to know

A friend gave me a solenoid off a Bosch starter so I decided to pull it apart to check the coils.
To my surprise both coils have the same number of turns.
The outer coil is lighter gauge and 4 x the resistance
The heavy coil is wound on the bottom so its wire is shorter and the heavier wire has less resistance.

The strength of a magnetic coil is dependent on the current times the number of turns (Ampere Turns)
They both have the same number of turns therefore the relative strength is the ratio of the Amps they draw
The inner coil of fatter wire has 1/4 of the resistance therefore will draw 4x the current making the field it produces 4x as strong.
When the solenoid nears the end of its travel the main contact closes removing the Voltage difference between the ends of the heavy coil at the same time applying the battery Voltage across the starter motor.

Interestingly when you take your finger off the button and the start relay opens the current through the solenoid doesn't drop to zero instantly but both coils are effectively wired in series so the current is identical therefore the magnetic strength will be the same.
But now the current in the heavy coil is reversed making the field equal but opposite, the fields cancel out so the solenoid lets everything go and the spring returns it to the home position, the main contact in the solenoid opens, now the current drops to zero.

Hi Roy
Amazing detail and effort on your part to help people with their starting issues, well done sir! very well explained and a lot of effort on your part, I'll add my thanks to you in improving my understanding of the issues around starter motors and solenoids especially.  

I have read every post here carefully and I understand or at least follow the discussion with interest. As a rusty telecoms engineer who worked on many relays in telephone exchanges I know when things go wrong they can get very complex, even more so when intermittent.  perhaps you can help me with my own starter problems on my 8V 2007 GRiSO.

Previous owner purchased a reconditioned starter from a reputable supplier, Ive just purchased a new new Battery, Yuasa 18.9 AH high performance, all wires, relays, connectors and fuses checked, cleaned etc.  starts fab most of the time but randomly (becoming more frequent) the solenoid operates but starter motor does not crank.  Most of the people talk about clicking or failure to click of the starter relay or solenoid but both are operating in my case and continue to operate for approx. 5 secs before releasing.  During this time there is a significant drain on the battery (lights dim) and despite numerous attempts to start, no fuses blow.

Now, my assumption was that if the solenoid operates, the low current circuit up to the solenoid MUST be okay (not necessarily optimum but continuity established).  Now I understand your oscilloscope current/time readings (brilliant) may affect the fuse blowing and how quickly and effectively the solenoid operates, and the drain on the battery possibly affecting its longevity is good enough reason to provide the simple fix of thicker wire from Starter relay output to solenoid.

But would this have stopped the motor cranking the engine?  if the solenoid had not connected the +ve (heavy current circuit) to the other end of the heavy coil in the solenoid, I assume that's when the fuse would blow as both solenoid coils would be drawing too much current from the starter relay output.  What causes the solenoid to drop out after 5 secs?  I assume holding coil magnetism is not quite enough to hold long term against the spring once the solenoid contacts have applied +ve to both sides of the heavy coil, so magnetism degrades.  This to me still suggests that the starter motor (motor) is intermittent and needs replacing?  I shall apply your starter relay o/p wiring mod as its too simple not to do and see if this improves.  

I can't say for sure whether the i/p to the starter relay is wired via the ignition switch as the only wiring diagram I can find is for the 2006 1100 GRiSO which shows the i/p coming from the ECU.  If I wired via a fuse the starter relay i/p direct from the + battery, wouldn't that make the starter button permanently live?  engine wouldn't start but anybody could crank the engine if parked?

Thanks Roy if you have time to respond
Kind regards  
Martin

Grisocaferacer wrote:

Hi Roy
............... the solenoid operates but starter motor does not crank.  Most of the people talk about clicking or failure to click of the starter relay or solenoid but both are operating in my case and continue to operate for approx. 5 secs before releasing.  During this time there is a significant drain on the battery (lights dim) and despite numerous attempts to start, no fuses blow.

Now, my assumption was that if the solenoid operates, the low current circuit up to the solenoid MUST be okay (not necessarily optimum but continuity established).  Now I understand your oscilloscope current/time readings (brilliant) may affect the fuse blowing and how quickly and effectively the solenoid operates, and the drain on the battery possibly affecting its longevity is good enough reason to provide the simple fix of thicker wire from Starter relay output to solenoid.  

But would this have stopped the motor cranking the engine?  if the solenoid had not connected the +ve (heavy current circuit) to the other end of the heavy coil in the solenoid, I assume that's when the fuse would blow as both solenoid coils would be drawing too much current from the starter relay output.  What causes the solenoid to drop out after 5 secs?  I assume holding coil magnetism is not quite enough to hold long term against the spring once the solenoid contacts have applied +ve to both sides of the heavy coil, so magnetism degrades.  This to me still suggests that the starter motor (motor) is intermittent and needs replacing?  I shall apply your starter relay o/p wiring mod as its too simple not to do and see if this improves.  

I can't say for sure whether the i/p to the starter relay is wired via the ignition switch as the only wiring diagram I can find is for the 2006 1100 GRiSO which shows the i/p coming from the ECU.  If I wired via a fuse the starter relay i/p direct from the + battery, wouldn't that make the starter button permanently live?  engine wouldn't start but anybody could crank the engine if parked?

Thanks Roy if you have time to respond
Kind regards  
Martin

"the solenoid operates but starter motor does not crank"
Too much resistance will do that, either external or inside the battery.
The lights are dimming perhaps you have a weak ground, if you fix one probe of your meter to the engine somewhere and put the other probe on battery negative it will show Zero but what happens when you operate the starter. The meter will show any Voltage lost in the ground

"Now, my assumption was that if the solenoid operates, the low current circuit .............."
Yes if it operates its ok

"But would this have stopped the motor cranking the engine? "  
The Stalled Torque the motor produces is proportional to the current through the armature, typically in the 150 Amp range. To get this current you need to have very little resistance in the circuit, By Ohms Law 12 / 150 = 0.08 Ohms The starter leads and ground are one source of resistance but so is the armature and the battery itself.
Obviously it's not possible to measure resistance that low with a cheap multimeter (or even an expensive one) but we can measure the Voltage at various points and back calculate resistance.
You can first of all measure the Voltage the battery is putting out under load, a typical battery will put out over 8 Volts while cranking.
Then you can measure the Voltace drop between the battery and the starter terminal
Don't forget the Voltage drop from the Negative terminal to ground (chassis for the Nth Americans)
As the batteries age the internal resistance starts to rise, but even a new battery could be high if it wasn't prepared properly, I think Pete Roper posted something on that.
"I assume that's when the fuse would blow as both solenoid coils would be drawing too much current
No, once the starter is engaged the heavy coil no longer draws current and the total current to the solenoid drops to ~10 Amps

Yes the 1200 GRiSO is wired through the ignition switch
For any Guzzi schematics google "Carl Allison Drawings", just make sure your Wife or Daughter is not looking over your shoulder. I got my ear chewed lol

"wouldn't that make the starter button permanently live?  engine wouldn't start but anybody could crank the engine if parked?"
No, the coil side of the relay is dead when the key is off, I worry more about the Grandkids pushing the start button and launching the bike.
The 1100 GRiSO came from the factory Unswitched like that

I think you have a bad ground, probably where it hooks onto the gearbox, fix that and perhaps just put a beefier wire between the relay and gearbox solenoid, it may be enough

Kiwi_Roy wrote:

Grisocaferacer wrote:

Hi Roy
............... the solenoid operates but starter motor does not crank.  Most of the people talk about clicking or failure to click of the starter relay or solenoid but both are operating in my case and continue to operate for approx. 5 secs before releasing.  During this time there is a significant drain on the battery (lights dim) and despite numerous attempts to start, no fuses blow.

Now, my assumption was that if the solenoid operates, the low current circuit up to the solenoid MUST be okay (not necessarily optimum but continuity established).  Now I understand your oscilloscope current/time readings (brilliant) may affect the fuse blowing and how quickly and effectively the solenoid operates, and the drain on the battery possibly affecting its longevity is good enough reason to provide the simple fix of thicker wire from Starter relay output to solenoid.  

But would this have stopped the motor cranking the engine?  if the solenoid had not connected the +ve (heavy current circuit) to the other end of the heavy coil in the solenoid, I assume that's when the fuse would blow as both solenoid coils would be drawing too much current from the starter relay output.  What causes the solenoid to drop out after 5 secs?  I assume holding coil magnetism is not quite enough to hold long term against the spring once the solenoid contacts have applied +ve to both sides of the heavy coil, so magnetism degrades.  This to me still suggests that the starter motor (motor) is intermittent and needs replacing?  I shall apply your starter relay o/p wiring mod as its too simple not to do and see if this improves.  

I can't say for sure whether the i/p to the starter relay is wired via the ignition switch as the only wiring diagram I can find is for the 2006 1100 GRiSO which shows the i/p coming from the ECU.  If I wired via a fuse the starter relay i/p direct from the + battery, wouldn't that make the starter button permanently live?  engine wouldn't start but anybody could crank the engine if parked?

Thanks Roy if you have time to respond
Kind regards  
Martin

"the solenoid operates but starter motor does not crank"
Too much resistance will do that, either external or inside the battery.
The lights are dimming perhaps you have a weak ground, if you fix one probe of your meter to the engine somewhere and put the other probe on battery negative it will show Zero but what happens when you operate the starter. The meter will show any Voltage lost in the ground

"Now, my assumption was that if the solenoid operates, the low current circuit .............."
Yes if it operates its ok

"But would this have stopped the motor cranking the engine? "  
The Stalled Torque the motor produces is proportional to the current through the armature, typically in the 150 Amp range. To get this current you need to have very little resistance in the circuit, By Ohms Law 12 / 150 = 0.08 Ohms The starter leads and ground are one source of resistance but so is the armature and the battery itself.
Obviously it's not possible to measure resistance that low with a cheap multimeter (or even an expensive one) but we can measure the Voltage at various points and back calculate resistance.
You can first of all measure the Voltage the battery is putting out under load, a typical battery will put out over 8 Volts while cranking.
Then you can measure the Voltace drop between the battery and the starter terminal
Don't forget the Voltage drop from the Negative terminal to ground (chassis for the Nth Americans)
As the batteries age the internal resistance starts to rise, but even a new battery could be high if it wasn't prepared properly, I think Pete Roper posted something on that.
"I assume that's when the fuse would blow as both solenoid coils would be drawing too much current
No, once the starter is engaged the heavy coil no longer draws current and the total current to the solenoid drops to ~10 Amps

Yes the 1200 GRiSO is wired through the ignition switch
For any Guzzi schematics google "Carl Allison Drawings", just make sure your Wife or Daughter is not looking over your shoulder. I got my ear chewed lol

"wouldn't that make the starter button permanently live?  engine wouldn't start but anybody could crank the engine if parked?"
No, the coil side of the relay is dead when the key is off, I worry more about the Grandkids pushing the start button and launching the bike.
The 1100 GRiSO came from the factory Unswitched like that

I think you have a bad ground, probably where it hooks onto the gearbox, fix that and perhaps just put a beefier wire between the relay and gearbox, it may be enough

Well, in all of the testing I did to identify the exact wiring from the Starter relay to the solenoid I now can't get it to fail at all, not once in 30 starts! Maybe a slight high resistance on the relay terminals? That said whilst I was in the mood I carried out the Batt - relay contacts - solenoid wiring mod using very heavy wire, fused, soldered and heat shrink etc, all remains good! Theres nothing more depressing than a 'quite' or 'loud' click as I'm sure you know.
Thanks again Roy for the help, much appreciated!!

When I first bought my GRiSO 2 Valve I replaced the wire from the relay to solenoid (refer to the first post on page 1), I made it a bit longer so if all else failed I could remove a bit of insulation and touch it on the battery positive.
This paid off when I dropped it while waiting for the ferry at Dawson City, it wouldn't start at all.
I figured it must have been the Tip-over switch but I had no idea where to find it.
So I cranked it over touching the wire on the battery and it started, I think this must have reset the Tip-over switch, it never looked back. The bare patch on the wire is covered with a length of heat shrink ready for the next time its needed.

Kiwi_Roy wrote:

When I first bought my GRiSO 2 Valve I replaced the wire from the relay to solenoid (refer to the first post on page 1), I made it a bit longer so if all else failed I could remove a bit of insulation and touch it on the battery positive.
This paid off when I dropped it while waiting for the ferry at Dawson City, it wouldn't start at all.
I figured it must have been the Tip-over switch but I had no idea where to find it.
So I cranked it over touching the wire on the battery and it started, I think this must have reset the Tip-over switch, it never looked back. The bare patch on the wire is covered with a length of heat shrink ready for the next time its needed.

Kiwi_Roy,
Thanks for taking the time to write up and investigate this issue and to explain how to resolve them. With that said I have not had success yet, I replaced the wire to the solenoid on my '07 GRiSO, got a new battery, put on the charger first and went to start and "clunk". I decided to replace the relay with a new one and again "clunk". Here's what I'm able to get to happen, if I put the old battery back on the bike and use my Dodge Ram truck to jump start it cranks over and runs, the other is if I take a piece of wire and touch it to the solenoid post and power at the battery or back of the starter it fires right up. What am I missing and /or do you have an idea of what maybe happening?

Thank you,
Karl

The solenoid takes a lot of current to pull the gear into mesh there are two coils inside, one that draws 10 Amps and another I call the grunt coil that would like to draw 40 Amps. If you have too much resistance feeding the solenoid it cannot draw enough current to pull the gear into mesh and so the main contacts don't close and spin the motor.
As you found hot wiring the solenoid works.
I think you might also have a bad battery ground.
Take your meter and fasten the negative lead to the chassis or engine bolt not associated with the battery
Put the meter on Volts and touch the positive lead to battery negative, try to start = Voltage reading if more than ~ 0.25 fix the ground
                - touch the positive lead to battery positive, try to start = Voltage reading
                - touch the positive lead to starter terminal on Solenoid, try to start = Voltage reading
                - touch the positive lead to battery positive, try to start = Voltage reading
                - touch the positive lead to solenoid spade connector, try to start = Voltage reading
Note: If the bike cranks while doing these tests the reading will be invalid

You have proven that the battery and starter are capable of starting the bike, we just need to find the weak point
Please find the start relay and measure the Voltage at the base 30 terminal key on and key off this will tell us which way its wired.

I will post the early GRiSO wiring here
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And the later wiring here
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I don't know if the change took place when it changed from 2 to 4 valves.
Locate the starter solenoid at bottom right its complete nonsense [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] This is what it's really like.
Trace the wire from the solenoid back to the start relay.
Earlier relay terminal 3 comes from fuse C which is unswitched.
Later relay terminal 3 comes from fuse 2 with is switched, they also added a second start relay
I believe the earlier wiring is better or would have been if they hadn't skimped on the wire size, think, "I want to get 40 Amps to the solenoid"
The usual fix for the later wiring is to clip the yellow wire just below where it branches out to the second relay and supply it with a direct feed from the battery or buy a kit from MPH
which really amounts to the same thing. Note other models like the Norge ar almost identical.

Lately I have read about owners adding an additional relay near the starter. I will try to describe it, If someone on here has actually done this please provide a picture
The large positive post through a 20 Amp fuse to the relay contact other relay contact to the solenoid spade terminal.
The existing wire to the spade connector is now run to the relay coil the other coil connection to a good ground point.
Although this is adding an extra relay it may seem less daunting than fixing the OEM wiring. For sure it will supply maximum current to the solenoid.
The relay should have a continuios rating of 20 Amps with inrush of at least 60 Amps
Here is the specs on a relay that Guzzi used in the past and use on the 1400 bikes, note the NO contact is rated 20 Amps Inrush 100 Amps
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You can use these without a base but you need narrow spade connectors for the coil terminals.
Or just buy a spare from your Guzzi dealer.

Kiwi_Roy wrote:

I think you might also have a bad battery ground.
Take your meter and fasten the negative lead to the chassis or engine bolt not associated with the battery
Put the meter on Volts and touch the positive lead to battery negative, try to start = Voltage reading if more than ~ 0.25 fix the ground
               

So my GRiSO has once again evolved start problems. It requires a nearly fully charged battery in order to start, and after riding for 4 days or so it will need to be put on a charger or it will fail to start. And over time I feel this is becoming worse. By now it only starts when I hold the start button rather than press it once. My battery is good and barely 2 month's old, but it feels as if a single successful start drains like 20% of the battery.

Also, whenever I start, whether the battery is fully charged or not, the lights dim and the dash blanks out. Often it takes quite a while for the engine to start rather than near instantly as it should. I have all the usual suspects fixed (thicker wire to solenoid, startus interruptus kit installed, the starter is also fine)

So as the bike failed to start again today, I decided to do this voltmeter to chassis test, but I'm not entirely sure what I'm measuring.

I connected the negative lead to an unused bolt hole in the left engine side (roughly behind the T-section of the exhaust), the positive lead to the negative battery pole. When I hold the start button so it really tries to start, the engine tries but fails to crank, dash blanks out, and the volt meter progressively builds up a value the longer I hold the start button going as high as -0.81. Does this value in any way explain why it doesn't start, and what is this a symptom of that I can fix?

motor-timothy wrote:

My battery is good and barely 2 month's old, but it feels as if a single successful start drains like 20% of the battery.

There's something wrong here, and I'd be looking for a replacement battery under warranty. Did you introduce the electrolyte into a dry battery, or did it come with the hydrochloric acid already installed?

kiwi dave wrote:

motor-timothy wrote:

My battery is good and barely 2 month's old, but it feels as if a single successful start drains like 20% of the battery.

There's something wrong here, and I'd be looking for a replacement battery under warranty.  Did you introduce the electrolyte into a dry battery, or did it come with the hydrochloric acid already installed?

I filled the electrolyte myself. It tests good on my charger which tests how well a battery keeps its load, and with my voltmeter all tests I did on the battery were good (doesn't drop too low when starting). Considering I've had start issues since I bought the bike, and replaced 4 batteries now in 3.5 years I'm thinking I should look in another area.

Another oddity I should mention: sometimes it fails to start for 3-4 tries, then suddenly when I'm about to give up it does start on the 4th or 5th try which is almost like a lithium battery when its cold, not something you'd expect of a lead acid battery.

How does it perform when an exterior (car?) battery is connected in parallel with the new battery on the bike?

Looking at your previous post referring to the voltmeter, it does sound like there is a significant resistance between the battery negative and the chassis.  You might like to experiment with an additional ground wire between the negative terminal and one of the bolts that holds the starter on to the engine.

Apologies if you've already tried this and I missed it.

Is the battery a 16 or a 20?

kiwi dave wrote:

How does it perform when an exterior (car?) battery is connected in parallel with the new battery on the bike?

I can't test this at the moment, though I suspect it will simply start, since it also starts when the battery is fully charged.

kiwi dave wrote:

Looking at your previous post referring to the voltmeter, it does sound like there is a significant resistance between the battery negative and the chassis.  You might like to experiment with an additional ground wire between the negative terminal and one of the bolts that holds the starter on to the engine.

Apologies if you've already tried this and I missed it.

Thanks, will give that a try, see if it helps.

Pete Roper wrote:

Is the battery a 16 or a 20?

It's the equivalent of a YTX20CH-BS, though from a different manufacturer (Dynavolt; after replacing 3 yuasa's in as many years I decided to try a different brand).