Subject: Re: GRiSO Startus Interuptus Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:42 am
Here again is the difference between an early 1100 2 Valve and the later 1200 4 Valve Here is the 2006 just a single Start Relay fed direct from fuse "C" (strictly speaking through 2 fuses in series) [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I suspect this didn't give too much trouble but the wire from relay to solenoid is far too small so change it out for sure.
And the 2008 downstream of the ignition switch from fuse 2 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] This bike has 2 Start Relays but now the start relay is fed down stream of the ignition switch through a lot more wiring Martin's video right near the start indicates what happens by the light going dim, his headlight is fed from the weak yellow wire that feeds the Start relay. I believe the second Start Relay was added to later CARC bikes to counter the first relay dropping out on under Voltage, this is just at the very start while the solenoid is pulling in to close the main solenoid contact. If it manages to close the cranking will be normal. Again the wire from relay to solenoid is too small, change it out.
I am fairly sure if you have modified the 4 Valve with a direct fuse you can unplug the second relay, I don't have a 4 valve to play with so I can't try it.
The yellow & black feed for the Light Logic Relay (6), the GPS feed (7), and the Left Hand Light Switch (9) are connected to connector "L" on the generator (27) whilst the rest of the bikes electrics including the battery are fed from connector "B" on the generator.
I'm assuming the the "generator" is actually an alternator plus diode matrix combo, but what are the separate feeds from the "generator" connected to inside the "generator"?
I'm guessing that perhaps these feeds are designed to come alive once the motor is running to reduce the initial load on the battery while starting, but how is it achieved?
Sorry Dave, i'm not really sure but I think the green/black wire from the alternator is feeding the light relay and also the top 2 or 3 fuses. I looked at the Norge drawings as well. The alternator must include a Voltage regulator, but I don't know much about it, never had to look at mine.
Hi folks, I am another convert to this fix for the starting problem. A typical day for me would be a number of button pushes followed by a click and then nothing. This would often repeat over and over, of course other days it would not miss a beat and start first try. This week I ran a fused wire from the battery to the relay and another to the stater solenoid, like magic the bike has not missed a start once. Fingers crossed while touching wood!
I cannot express enough thanks for the great help here on these pages, I am electrically inept and a visual learner so after reading about the fix it was great to see the video which gave me the confidence to have a go, job done.
Now I just have to work out why I have developed a tiny oil leak after an oil and filter change. The drip is from the area around the filter. I am positive I cleaned the face correctly but the evidence would appear that I may have been more thorough.
I just wish I lived closer to Pete, then I could let someone that has clue take care of GRiSO!
Are you sure the old gasket came off with the old filter? They quite often stick to the filter seat up in the 'Pit' and then if another filter is installed you'll get a leak.
Converted Duc GRiSO Capo
Posts : 291 Join date : 2014-12-16 Age : 56
Subject: Re: GRiSO Startus Interuptus Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:06 am
Yeah I took a look and cleaned it with a cloth, I think I got it all. Always appreciate your help Pete. Pete if i attempt to remove the filter and clean again will I make an almighty mess and loose all the oil?
Pete Roper GRiSO Capo
Posts : 8301 Join date : 2013-05-29 Age : 64
Subject: Re: GRiSO Startus Interuptus Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:04 am
Nope. You'll loose a bit but not a lot.
Converted Duc GRiSO Capo
Posts : 291 Join date : 2014-12-16 Age : 56
Subject: Re: GRiSO Startus Interuptus Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:09 pm
OK, my turn... 2006 1100 progressively getting worse with startus interuptus. Ran a new thick wire from the start relay to the solenoid - no joy. Bike starts if I jump from the car. Tried the trick of touching a wire directly from the battery +ve to the solenoid and what do ya know, starts up every time. Now I know the battery/solenoid/starter is fine. I suspect that path from the battery to the start relay. I'll test that after lunch and post results. Pretty sure that's exactly why Converted Duc got his working.
To Kiwi_Roy, thanks a bunch for sharing all your super helpful insight and work. Folks like you make the World go round!
Traced out the physical path from the battery +ve to the supply side of the start relay. Looks like it's perfect - I get as close to 0 ohm as my meter can read. If I take a fat wire directly from the battery +ve to the relay and hit the starter button it still won't start. Take that fat wire to the other side of the relay (solenoid), it starts up quickly. Hmm. I read that the ECU decides to disengage the start relay if it senses that the voltage it too low. Can that be the cause? I see 12.4V on the dash. It's not a new battery; but it sure will start the bike with no problem.
Yep. I get a loud clunk and everything "resets". The gauge needles do their little dance. I have pulled the ground bolt (just above the starter) and cleaned all of that. I'm starting to think it's just the battery. Had a new one but the other night when I had it on the charger, I noticed the current was too high so I took it off the charger - the battery was hot. So, now I've got the previous one in place. It shows 12.4V on the dash - perhaps that's not enough for the old tractor.
I think you're right. If the dash blanks out when the solenoid pulls in, (That's the 'Thunk' you hear.) it's because the current draw for the starter is causing the voltage to drop below what the dash or ecu perceives as it's safe level so it aborts the entire electrical start up procedure. After a couple of seconds it will reboot and because there is no load the voltage will once again be above the cut off threshold. Of course if you connect battery power directly to the solenoid you bypass the electronics and it'll fire up unless the battery is completely dead or near dead. The safety cut off though is there I assume to prevent voltage spikes when the motor does fire up and the alternator starts charging before the regulator can control it properly.
The factory specifies a YTX 20 CH-BS but unfortunately there is also a YTX 16 CH-BS, (Or equivalents if not Yuasa.) and while dimensionally identical the 16 is a considerably weaker battery. The thing is the 16 is also considerably cheaper than the 20 and given that most droids employed at battery shops are about twelve years old and don't actually understand a lot about batteries and Guzzi owners are generally so mean they can peel and eat an orange without taking their hands out of their pockets a lot of Grisos, (And I mean a LOT!) end up with 16's in. Now while these will work OK for a while they will drop below the voltage threshold much sooner than a 20 rendering any *Savings* moot and greatly increasing the chances of the problem you are encountering once the weather gets too hot, or too cold, or if the bike sits idle for any period of time.
So nip out and buy a 20AH battery and if you get it dry and put it into service yourself PLEASE read the instructions on how to put it into service and follow them. You can't just add the acid and put it in the bike and ride off like you could with an old style lead/acid battery. Well you can, but it'll just blow the acid out all over your pretty motorbike! This is not a good idea.
I had bought a new YTX 20 CH-BS and I followed the instructions that came with it. I think it's toast now - we'll if you hook it up to a charger it will toast anything placed on it. It must have a shorted cell. I'll look through my notes and see where I got it and go elsewhere. Thanks for your input.
As well as fitting an extra Earth Lead (to a Bellhousing Stud), it's also worth adding a second Lead from the Alternator Post to the Battery +ve Terminal. The original Alternator Terminal has been known to corrode and fall apart.
This is on a Stelvio, but it'll be the same on all the 1200 8V models (and possibly the 4V?).
I did both mods on my Stelvio, the Voltage at the Battery at idle went from around 13.6V, to 14.3V.
Posts : 7 Join date : 2015-09-09
Subject: Re: GRiSO Startus Interuptus Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:22 am
And now to finish my story... New battery did not fix the problem. My new wire from the starter relay to the solenoid was larger; but, out of shear frustration, I put an even bigger one there (14 gauge solid from house wiring - take that!). Still no joy. One last piece. I jumpered from the battery +ve to the relay input using the 14g wire and she starts every time without fail. Somewhere along the path from the battery through the fuse box to the relay there must be a fault or that wire is too small. Tonight's project is to yank all of that out and replace the wires with the 14g solid. I did take kiwi_roy's advice and left a short lead on that solenoid wire tucked away as an emergency start just in case.
I jumpered from the battery +ve to the relay input using the 14g wire and she starts every time without fail. Somewhere along the path from the battery through the fuse box to the relay there must be a fault or that wire is too small.
If I recall correctly, the power for the starter relay goes via the ignition switch. I may be getting my models confused, but this is certainly the case for the 2V Sports.
I just did a continuity test from the battery to the solenoid. (This is on a 2006 2V 1100) It goes from the battery through the 30A main fuse (#23 on schematic) through a connector then to the 20A "C" fuse (#22) to the "hot" side of the relay. Hit the start switch, the relay closes and now it flows out the relay to the solenoid. Matches the path and colors on Carl Allison's schematic. When I jumpered it, I was just bypassing the 30A fuse, the connector, and the 20A fuse. However, I know the start button works so I didn't bother with it and just noticed that I don't see it on Carl's schematic. ??? The non-power side of the start relay goes to the ECU on pins 1 and 17. Where's the starter button?
After a few months of very intermittent starting issue (hit starter loud click, have to hit kill SW and restart). Finally this morning it wouldn't start and no loud click. When I went looking, it turns out that I had the mod done by PO, but the spade connector had came loose on the starter relay. Cleaned it all up with contact cleaner and a wire brush re crimped. Re greased, starting away. I'd been doing a bit of reading on the mod I seem to have a 5 amp fuse on the direct line to relay, smaller than recommended?. Does mod look the same as recommend here? Is that pushing it a bit?
5A does seem a wee bit small; but, if it's not blowing then that circuit must not be carrying a sustained amperage more than 5A. There is a 20A fuse ("C") in the aux fuse box in the factory circuit and mine has blown before (could have been my fault while troubleshooting). I'm going to take a heavy wire from the battery lead to that 20A "C" fuse and then from there to the starter relay (input side). That takes the 30A main fuse and connector out of my circuit. BTW, does anybody know how to de-pin these connectors? I'd prefer to pull the pins and recrimp the new wire for a cleaner install.
Whatever type, the Pins/Sockets will have one (or two) small Barbs, which lock them into the Body of the Connectors. These are the Barbs, they'll be similar on most types of Terminals. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
The thin round Pins/Sockets are the trickiest, you usually need a proper Tool for those, basically a very thin metal Tube that fits closely over the Pin or Socket, but it can be done without if you know what you're looking for, Barb-wise.