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FrontRangeRider
Grignapoco
Grignapoco
FrontRangeRider

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PostSubject: Startus Interruptus Fixed   Startus Interruptus Fixed Icon_minitime1Thu May 24, 2018 7:32 pm

My bike is a 2016 1200 8V SE.

I was going to go for a long ride with friends this morning but when I pushed the starter button, all I got was a click.  Thanks to the great information here, I had a leg up on where to start the troubleshooting.  

In the interest of checking the easy things first, I checked fuses (all of them were intact), checked the battery connections (negative connection was clean and looked good; positive connection was a mess so I cleaned it up) and checked and cleaned the ground connection by the starter (which looked good).  Put it all back together and GRiSO started on the first crank.  Bottom line - check your battery connections early in the troubleshooting process; never thought that they would be the culprit.

I will do the starter relay modification (described in numerous posts here) sometime soon.  The recommendation is to use a fused wire connection from the battery to the starter relay with a wire with a 2.5mm cross section.  Based on what I found on the web, that is equivalent to 14 gauge AWG wire.  Quick question for the collective wisdom:   what is the connector type that will be inserted into the relay so I know what to buy for the relay end when I fabricate the wire?

Thanks!


Last edited by FrontRangeRider on Thu May 24, 2018 8:02 pm; edited 2 times in total
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sideshowbob
GRiSO Capo
GRiSO Capo
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus Fixed   Startus Interruptus Fixed Icon_minitime1Thu May 24, 2018 7:42 pm

Your 2016 really shouldn't need the fix, if I am wrong, someone will let us know.


Last edited by sideshowbob on Thu May 24, 2018 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FrontRangeRider
Grignapoco
Grignapoco
FrontRangeRider

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PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus Fixed   Startus Interruptus Fixed Icon_minitime1Thu May 24, 2018 7:52 pm

That would be good news so am definitely interested to hear if this issue has been corrected on the newer models.
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beetle
GRiSO Capo
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beetle

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PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus Fixed   Startus Interruptus Fixed Icon_minitime1Thu May 24, 2018 10:41 pm

They're wired the same as the 2008 models, so yes, it can affect them.




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Kiwi_Roy
Biondino
Biondino
Kiwi_Roy

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Join date : 2017-11-09

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PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus Fixed   Startus Interruptus Fixed Icon_minitime1Fri May 25, 2018 7:15 am

If you find the connector for the relay socket please post it here otherwise just snip the yellow wire a few inches away and join it with a butt splice. Even a 16 or 18 gauge will be an improvement over feeding the relay through the ignition switch.

Carl's schematic shows 2 relays in the start circuit for a 2008 fed by a common yellow.
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Smear the battery terminals with Vaseline and you will never have a re-occurance of the mess.

BTW the earlier Grisos like my 2007 already have a grey/red (i think) direct feed from fuse C but the wire from relay to solenoid is woefully small, I replaced mine with just 18 gauge and the solenoid now operates 3 x as fast.
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The inrush current approaches 40 Amps for a split second,  a 15 Amp fuse will work but perhaps use a 20 for good measure.
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FrontRangeRider
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus Fixed   Startus Interruptus Fixed Icon_minitime1Fri May 25, 2018 7:48 pm

Kiwi-Roy - Will do when I figure out the connector.

Thank you for the tip about the Vaseline.  We don't have any so I'll buy some.  

I am a bit confused about which wire I should snip or remove and replace the connector.  You mention the yellow wire (as does a post in Guzzitech).  In Onur Kuraner's post on the subject here on the Ghetto, he says to remove the orange/ yellow wire.  When I look at the wiring diagram, it appears that the orange/ yellow wire goes to the starter motor. Seems like I would not want to feed 12 volts full time directly to the starter.   Looks like the yellow wire goes to the key switch, the license plate bulb and the fuse panel.  For the life of me, I cannot find the starter switch or the kill switch in the wiring diagram; I thought if I could find that circuit, it would help me understand the logic.  Please confirm that the yellow wire is the one I need to replace the connection to.

Also, is that wire always hot (yellow, I assume)?  Would it be appropriate to attach the extra wire via a splice terminal or does the stock yellow wire need to be removed when you add the power from the larger gauge wire?

Thanks,
Alden
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus Fixed   Startus Interruptus Fixed Icon_minitime1Sat May 26, 2018 1:08 am

FrontRangeRider wrote:
Kiwi-Roy - Will do when I figure out the connector.  

Thank you for the tip about the Vaseline.  We don't have any so I'll buy some.  

I am a bit confused about which wire I should snip or remove and replace the connector.  You mention the yellow wire (as does a post in Guzzitech).  In Onur Kuraner's post on the subject here on the Ghetto, he says to remove the orange/ yellow wire.  When I look at the wiring diagram, it appears that the orange/ yellow wire goes to the starter motor. Seems like I would not want to feed 12 volts full time directly to the starter.   Looks like the yellow wire goes to the key switch, the license plate bulb and the fuse panel.  For the life of me, I cannot find the starter switch or the kill switch in the wiring diagram; I thought if I could find that circuit, it would help me understand the logic.  Please confirm that the yellow wire is the one I need to replace the connection to.

Also, is that wire always hot (yellow, I assume)?  Would it be appropriate to attach the extra wire via a splice terminal or does the stock yellow wire need to be removed when you add the power from the larger gauge wire?

Thanks,
Alden

This is the wiring schematic for the 1200: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

(2) is the starter relay. 2 wires are of interest: The yellow wire and the orange-yellow wire. The yellow wire goes all the way through the bike and originates from the fuse box (22), where it receives power from the positive battery terminal. Besides the starter relay it also feeds various other switches for our GRiSO (9, 13 & 18) before it reaches the starter relay.

When you press the start button, the switch in the starter relay engages and current is bridged from the yellow wire to the orange-yellow wire. This orange yellow wire is the one connected directly to the solenoid on the starter motor (24). This engages the solenoid, which functions essentially as another switch, bridging the connection within the starter motor to allow for the large current required to actually start the starter motor to be provided directly from the battery through the thick red cable (25) to (24).

So now there are 2 issues plaguing some of our GRiSO's. The most common issue & fix is that the yellow wire which is the supply of current to the starter relay, looses too much current due to its convoluted route in combination with various age related circumstances (dirt, somewhat corroded terminals, etc..etc..) leading to increased resistance. This means the solenoid does not get enough current fast enough, resulting in it either drawing current too long resulting in a burned fuse. Alternatively the ECU intervenes, detecting the low current and blocking the start attempt (resulting in a click-no-start but no burned fuse). The fix to this is simply making a shortcut directly from the battery to the starter relay (include a fuse!). This way the current no longer has to wrestle through meters of wiring and potential resistance before reaching the start relay. You can also buy a plug and play kit if you don't want to mess with the wiring, which I did as back then I did not yet have the confidence to mess with the wiring (mphcycles is were I got mine, its about 30€)


In my case, this fix did not fix the issue. For the second issue is that the yellow-orange wire which supplies the solenoid from the starter relay is barely thick enough to supply enough current to the solenoid quickly enough. So I also replaced the yellow-orange wire running from the starter relay to the solenoid with a thicker wire to reduce resistance. That finally fixed all my issues, now it starts 100% foolproof.
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Kiwi_Roy
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus Fixed   Startus Interruptus Fixed Icon_minitime1Sat May 26, 2018 7:22 pm

Motor Timothy wrote:


This is the wiring schematic for the 1200: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

When you press the start button, the switch in the starter relay engages and current is bridged from the yellow wire to the orange-yellow wire. This orange yellow wire is the one connected directly to the solenoid on the starter motor (24). This engages the solenoid, which functions essentially as another switch, bridging the connection within the starter motor to allow for the large current required to actually start the starter motor to be provided directly from the battery through the thick red cable (25) to (24).

So now there are 2 issues plaguing some of our GRiSO's. The most common issue & fix is that the yellow wire which is the supply of current to the starter relay, looses too much current due to its convoluted route in combination with various age related circumstances (dirt, somewhat corroded terminals, etc..etc..) leading to increased resistance. This means the solenoid does not get enough current fast enough, resulting in it either drawing current too long resulting in a burned fuse. Alternatively the ECU intervenes, detecting the low current and blocking the start attempt (resulting in a click-no-start but no burned fuse). The fix to this is simply making a shortcut directly from the battery to the starter relay (include a fuse!). This way the current no longer has to wrestle through meters of wiring and potential resistance before reaching the start relay. You can also buy a plug and play kit if you don't want to mess with the wiring, which I did as back then I did not yet have the confidence to mess with the wiring (mphcycles is were I got mine, its about 30€)

[/quote]

Motor-Timothy summed it up quite well but I will elaborate a little.
The solenoid is more than another relay, it has to pull the starter gear into mesh before its main contact is allowed to close, this takes a huge pull.
To supply this pull there are not one but two solenoid coils, one that draws around 10 Amps and another that does the lions share of the pulling that draws 40 Amps. As soon as the gear is in place the main contact closes and the motor starts to spin at the same time the current in the pulling coil drops to zero leaving the 10 Amp coil to hold everything in place.

The factory don't seem to realize how much current the solenoid coils pull or they would have fixed the problem 20 years ago, I see quite a few changes to the starter wiring over the years, they are trying at least,

Don't think your GRiSO is unique. almost every Guzzi model since 2000 is suffering the same affliction, I just heard the other day about a V7 melting the ignition switch Norge and Brevas have been suffering for years.

BTW the early Grisos like my 07 were wired differently bypassing the switch but again the wire from relay to solenoid was far too small.


Last edited by Kiwi_Roy on Sun May 27, 2018 6:02 am; edited 2 times in total
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FrontRangeRider
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus Fixed   Startus Interruptus Fixed Icon_minitime1Sat May 26, 2018 7:39 pm

Motor-Timothy and Kiwi_Roy - Thank you both for the detailed explanations. Now I understand what I need to do.
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Kiwi_Roy
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus Fixed   Startus Interruptus Fixed Icon_minitime1Sun May 27, 2018 6:14 am

You can read an earlier posting about the subject here.
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I started a thread on what I found with my 2007
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The topic has been beaten to death on other Guzzi forums

Here's a good tip from Wardest
I found the spade connector had gone soft. I wondered if this is the cause for this problem as it’s an easy fix.
I swaged in a new spade connector that is normally connected to an oven heating element. Covered it in black heat shrink
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JohnA
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus Fixed   Startus Interruptus Fixed Icon_minitime1Mon May 28, 2018 5:18 am

I have a 2014 and had the startus problem about a year after new. I bought a kit from MPH Cycles in TX. It was ready to plug in. It came with a 15 amp fuse. They blew a couple of times. Our, Dr. Pete Roper told me I should use a 20 amp and I’d be fine. He was correct and I haven’t had a problem in a year.
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Kiwi_Roy
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus Fixed   Startus Interruptus Fixed Icon_minitime1Mon May 28, 2018 6:30 am

John A
I believe if the factory realized how much current the solenoid draws they would have chosen a 20.
Some time take a look and see what size wire is running from the relay to the solenoid.
With a fatter wire there the inrush current will be higher but the time also drops to about 15 milliseconds.
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JohnA
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus Fixed   Startus Interruptus Fixed Icon_minitime1Mon May 28, 2018 6:45 am

Hi Kiwi-Roy,
The fuse I was referring to is in the “kit” I bought to fix the problem.
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FrontRangeRider
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus Fixed   Startus Interruptus Fixed Icon_minitime1Mon May 28, 2018 7:51 pm

I did the starter relay modification today with a 15 amp fuse and 14 gauge wire.  At some point, I will  upgrade the orange/ yellow wire between the starter relay and the starter solenoid.  

I did not cut any wires; I just used a pin to push the existing spade connector on the yellow wire out of the relay block and taped it liberally with electric tape.  That connector is a female spade connector of the size for 14-16 gauge wire.  I put a new connector on the wire and fuse combo and inserted it into the spot for the yellow wire.  

I used crimp style connectors since that was what I had available in the shop and at the local AutoZone.  Is there a better choice that has better corrosion resistance?  I can imagine after a couple of years that there will be oxidation between the wire and the connector.
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus Fixed   Startus Interruptus Fixed Icon_minitime1Tue May 29, 2018 7:49 am

Up under the seat the crimp connector should be ok for ages.
I'm in the habit of dipping the wires in Vaseline before crimping, especially in wet areas, they will never corrode that way.
Vaseline for battery terminals also, it's what I learned as an apprentice over 50 years ago.
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