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 Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)

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antmanbee
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Sat May 16, 2020 1:58 pm

Since the time I purchased this Breva 750 on a fly and ride a couple of years ago, it has always had symptoms of startus interruptus.
The previous owner said it usually starts and this is mostly true.  
He advised me that he had purchased the kit from Todd Haven in Texas that plugs in and fixes this issue but he said it still sometimes is reluctant to start.
Sure enough I could see the harness kit plugged into a relay under the seat.
I rode the bike home and a few times on the trip I had to make several attempt to get it to start but it never left me stranded or having to bump start it.
I just lived with it thinking that maybe I had a sticky solenoid or something and I was too lazy to pull the starter apart to clean and inspect it.
So during the Corona-stay-the-fuck-home spare time I decided to fix it.
I pulled the starter motor and disassembled it and cleaned and re-lubed everything and inspected the solenoid shaft and it all went back together and I was hoping that this would fix it.
All hooked up and I still get just the click. I then make a little U shaped wire from romex and test the starter from the hot to the spade and it spins fine.
Now this is forcing me to think, so I get out my DVM to test the voltage drop at the spade connector at the solenoid.
I am running a LiFePo battery so the nominal voltage at the battery is around 13.4V and I am only getting about 12 or possibly a little less at the spade connector. WTF how can this be?
So I pull up the wiring diagram to study it and get a good idea of how this is all wired up.
I then go to verify if the relays are working properly and thinking maybe I’ll swap them because maybe there is some high internal resistance in the contacts.
To see if I am getting a good click in the relay and to test by feel, I put my finger on it and press the starter button.
I hear it but can’t feel anything. I put my finger on the adjacent relay and hit the starter button and feel the click.

I have my Eureka moment with the realization that the harness kit was installed on the wrong relay!
Dumb shit that I am, it never occurred to me to check this. I saw the kit in there and assumed the startus interruptus fix had been made and the problem was elsewhere.
For someone lazy like me this is very disheartening that I just did all this work when all it took was a couple of minutes to swap the harness from one relay to the other.
I could have been watching youtube videos or….


Last edited by antmanbee on Wed May 20, 2020 8:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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MalG
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Sat May 16, 2020 2:28 pm

Well found. I've never had the problem on the V7C (touch wood) in near 220,000km & it may as well be the same bike. It has reared its ugly head on a few occasions on the 1TB V7 Special, but pausing, pondering, & walking around the bike seems to fix it. In the 6,00km since reassembly (after replacing the clutch) it hasn't happened at all. Early days. Both V7's sport Li batteries, if that's relevant.
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antmanbee
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Sat May 16, 2020 5:16 pm

I have Lithium Iron batteries in 3 of my bikes now. I don't think I will buy another lead acid battery.
I am investigating constructing my own LiFePo battery with a BMS.
Hopefully I can make one cheaper than buying already made and then It would most likely be repairable by me if ever needed.
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Kiwi_Roy
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Tue May 19, 2020 1:49 am

The battery type has little bearing on Startus Interrupts, its too much resistance in the starter solenoid circuit e.g. a pair of dirty ignition switch contacts and too much overloaded wire.
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antmanbee
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Tue May 19, 2020 4:29 am

Kiwi_Roy wrote:
The battery type has little bearing on Startus Interrupts, its too much resistance in the starter solenoid circuit e.g. a pair of dirty ignition switch contacts and too much overloaded wire.

I did find that out when I purchased a new LiFePo battery and the problem persisted.
I needed a new battery anyway because another fault is parasitic draw on the Breva 750.
I don't ride it often enough and with too many bikes it is difficult for me to stay on top of battery maintenance.
I think it is the dash that drains it down.
Another problem to solve. I may make a high amp quick disconnect from the battery ground with a 100A Anderson disconnect.
I am open to other suggestions for the parasitic draw solution.
The reason I mentioned the battery type and voltage in my first post was only to give a reference point of where the initial resting voltage was and to how much it dropped to.
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Kiwi_Roy
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Tue May 19, 2020 6:51 am

Getting back to your original post, to find the kit on the wrong relay, that was lucky that situation could have fooled anyone for months.
Re the parasitic battery draw, "No a disconnect won't work, you just have to ride it more often, its not responsible to own a nice motorbike and not ride it".
Actually a battery tender will work but dont leave it on for months on end, one idea is to connect it into the garage light so its only on when the door is open.
I found the GRiSO has a system of checking the direction indicator lamps that has a constant discharge of 40 microamps per lamp 160 total, its there all the time, 24/7 key On or Off
You could test the Breva to see if its the same, just pull one of the lamps and see what the dash does with the key On.
Replacing the lamps with LEDs won't fix it either, its really not a problem you should worry about, just ride the poor thing or sell it on to someone who will.


Last edited by Kiwi_Roy on Fri May 22, 2020 2:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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antmanbee
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Tue May 19, 2020 2:35 pm

I get about a 4mA continuous draw on the 30A fuse that supplies everything on the bike.
On the 3A fuse I get 1mA draw which is included in the 4mA total.
So I am getting the remaining 3mA being drawn by possibly the dash?
The draw over a month is about 3AH.

What is the problem with a disconnect on the ground? I will just unplug it after a ride.
I probably should sell a few bikes but every time I ride one I say to myself "I would be happy if this was my only bike".
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rick pope
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Tue May 19, 2020 4:43 pm

I probably should sell a few bikes but every time I ride one I say to myself "I would be happy if this was my only bike".

Comments like that are not allowed.Shocked Don't even think about uttering that around my wife. Evil or Very Mad
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Kiwi_Roy
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Wed May 20, 2020 5:01 am

Its probably ok to break the battery connection, why not just disconnect the negative lead to try it.
4 mA is quite significant, its surprising how that will drain a battery before you know it.
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antmanbee
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Wed May 20, 2020 6:00 am

I am thinking of trying something like this battery disconnect.
Motorcycle terminal disconnect

I have tried just pulling the 30 amp fuse and that works to not allow the battery to drain.
I just don't think it is a good idea to be pulling the fuse out frequently and I want something easier too.
It has the 15RC ECU. Is there any reason it might be bad to not have the juice going to the ECU and the dash?
For instance there may be some stored parameters that will affect the running of the bike?
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kiwi dave
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Wed May 20, 2020 1:46 pm

Pulling the 30A fuse is an extreme measure to try to prevent the battery being drained.

I you don't have power in your parking space to run a trickle charger (I run mine on a timer), what about connecting a larger car battery to maintain the charge?

This should last easily between rides, unless you only get out once or twice a year.
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beetle
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Wed May 20, 2020 2:27 pm

antmanbee wrote:

It has the 15RC ECU. Is there any reason it might be bad to not have the juice going to the ECU and the dash?
For instance there may be some stored parameters that will affect the running of the bike?


The fuel trims will get reset. Not a problem.




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rick pope
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Wed May 20, 2020 5:06 pm

If pulling the fuse works, why not just put a switch in that wire? If hidden it would also serve as an anti-theft device.
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Oz1200Guzzi
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Wed May 20, 2020 5:29 pm

AntMan, just make sure it is capable of carrying 30+ Amps, else there will be a fire, and not in the cylinders/heads. That risk alone is worth not doing it. However a relay with 45A contacts could be a solution. Though this just makes things more complicated again.

However I think it better to address the real issue and that is that there is a drain on the battery all the time. If you can't use a tender, or a regular ride/charge to keep things fully charged, the best option is to disconnect "something". Personally I would ride (says he who's bike is in bits awaiting parts from Europe), though I will have to put a charge on the battery this week to keep things good. This is FI nirvana I guess.
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bahamazoo
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Wed May 20, 2020 11:24 pm

my 1200 2V also has a parasitic draw.
always has.
the only thing that I can put it down to is the clock...
I work away, often for long periods, and found that 3 weeks unattended was about maximum before I needed a jump start/recharge.
a trickle charger was not an option early on
so I pull both 30A fuses before I depart and upon return, replace, push the go button and, er, go.
no issues.
well, there is one.
you have to reset the clock  Razz
is it the clock that doing it?? I don't really know, but with the fuses out, juice can't leak!

I have been doing this for almost 10 years without issue.
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antmanbee
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Thu May 21, 2020 4:58 am

My battery math is for a stock lead acid 12AH is,
12AH-2.88AH =9.12AH is 76% of a full charge.
12.7V = 100% charge      12.4V = 75% charge
Plus the normal rate of self discharge.

LiFePO4 battery in the bike 4.5AH,
4.5AH-2.88 =1.62AH is 36% of a full charge
13.4V =99% charge      13.1V =36% charge

With either battery in a period of a month they become dangerously close to damage.
The lead acid even disconnected will discharge substantially in the heat of a garage during a month.

I thought about using a switch, possibly hidden on the 30A circuit BUt I usually try to avoid chopping into the wiring harness.
Another reason for the battery ground disconnect I linked would be the ease of removing it if it ever failed.
I suppose the under seat battery disconnect would serve as an anti theft device, just not as convenient as a switch.
I don't think there is any other way to address the issue of the drain, as I think all Breva 750's have this issue.
The LiFePO4 batteries have worked well on a couple of other bikes that I have with no parasitic loss.
They could sit for several months.
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beetle
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Thu May 21, 2020 5:14 am


Das blinken light on my GRiSO kills a leethium battery in 3 months.



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antmanbee
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Thu May 21, 2020 5:39 am

The other 2 bikes with the lithiums are my V11 Sport and a S40 Thumper Suzuki.
The thumper sometimes sits for several months and starts without issue.
I sure wish my GRiSO and the Breva had the simplicity of the earlier bikes.
My Calvin was a 2007 like the GRiSO and it was still simple without all the dash to ECU interconnection and without the stupid chipped keys.
The GRiSO is the apex of Guzzi design and engineering. If only it didn't have all the shit electronics.
If I keep the bike long term I want to trash the dash and key.
I'm not sure this is possible with the interconnection to the ECU.
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kiwi dave
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Thu May 21, 2020 1:57 pm

Leaving the GRiSO ignition key in (but not switched on) will keep the immobilizer antenna active.  I was fooled when my battery went flat unexpectedly and I was chasing parasitic drain.  I thought I kept records, but I  can't find any, but guessing drain was over 100 mA.
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antmanbee
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Thu May 21, 2020 2:22 pm

kiwi dave wrote:
Leaving the GRiSO ignition key in (but not switched on) will keep the immobilizer antenna active.  I was fooled when my battery went flat unexpectedly and I was chasing parasitic drain.  I thought I kept records, but I  can't find any, but guessing drain was over 100 mA.

That's good to know. I have not left the key in my GRiSO but I do that sometimes in my other bikes.
A couple days at that discharge rate would kill it.
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beetle
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Thu May 21, 2020 3:25 pm


It doesn't. I leave my key in the GRiSO when it's in the garage. It won't die in 2 days. It takes 3 months.




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kiwi dave
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Thu May 21, 2020 8:21 pm

beetle wrote:

It doesn't. I leave my key in the GRiSO when it's in the garage. It won't die in 2 days. It takes 3 months.

Have you measured the current drain with the key in?
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beetle
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Thu May 21, 2020 8:39 pm


I haven't.



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Oz1200Guzzi
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Thu May 21, 2020 10:07 pm

A LiFePO4 battery, when disconnected should hold its charge for up to 12 months - part of the design spec. What brand are you using? Please don't say Shorai...
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Kiwi_Roy
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Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved)   Startus Interruptus on a Breva 750 (resolved) (but other issues unresolved) Icon_minitime1Fri May 22, 2020 2:30 am

The dash sends 40 microamps of current to each of the indicator lamps 160 microamps total 24/7 even when the key is out. While this doesn't sound like a lot it's only one of a number of drains.
A UPS adapter for a GPS even without the unit turned on is another.
Getting back on topic Startus Interuptus, thats all about the weak supply to the start relay
Personally I would never purchase an MPH kit but it's a cheap fix if you don't want to cut into the loom.
Another alternative to snipping wires is add another relay near the starter and feed the coil with the original trigger wire and ground.
The contacts go between the large hot terminal and the trigger terminal of the solenoid.
A 20 Amp fuse in the hot feed is optional.
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