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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:01 am

Thanks all. In hindsight I'm pretty sure the voltage drop upon starting is unrelated and caused by a bad startermotor. Rocking it in gear first alleviates the problem and I recall that I've already took it apart 3 years ago, lubricated stuff and that temporarily fixed the issue back then. I figure I should just replace it for a new one.  Does anyone happen to know a good alternative to the 500€ Bosch starter? I vaguely recall the same starter is also used in a type of car for a lot cheaper but I forgot the details.


Kiwi_Roy wrote:


If pulling the smaller fuses had no effect, only the main fuse dropped the current does that mean the current is heading for the alternator across the Green/Red wire?
I seem to recall Pete Roper told us something about a wiring fault on some of the alternator plugs, a two prong plug in a "T" configuration, apparently only one pin is to be alive.

The other 30 Amp fuse feeds the Dash, could it be something it's turning on?
If you could double check that none of the small fuses interrupts the 52 mA that would be huge.
The Lamda probe should be powered off the Main Injection Relay.

I've double checked: I've pulled all the relays under the seat including the main injection relay and it had no effect on the drain. I've pulled all the small fuses in the fusebox under the seat and it had no effect on the drain. Pulling the 30Amp fuse feeding the alternator had no effect on the drain. Pulling the 30Amp fuse that feeds (amongst other things) the dash does stop the drain.
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Holger
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:29 am

Hello,

a question: how old is the battery?
That the voltage drop has to do with a battery too old?

regards
Holger
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:24 am

Holger wrote:
Hello,

a question: how old is the battery?
That the voltage drop has to do with a battery too old?

regards
Holger

No it's has done so through 4 different batteries. My current battery is 6 weeks old.
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kiwi dave
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:35 pm

Are you getting the batteries from the same source? I've observed the Indian FTR1200 have experienced a run of dud batteries (including mine) that replacement is the only cure. Batteries should last a reasonable time.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:40 pm

It is also very important that AGM batteries are put into service correctly. You can't just throw the acid in and put them into the bike and run it.
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:36 pm

I assume you must mean the fuse that also feeds the ignition switch, you could unplug that at connector (1)
If it's something in the dash or downstream I really don't know what it could be.
I do know that the dash puts out a constant current to each of the direction indicator bulbs even when the bike is down but that is microamps, not milliamps are you sure you are on the right range?

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As Pete says don't just bung a battery into the bike, condition it first with a charge, the batteries I buy come with a pamphlet on putting them into service.

Read through these older threads and see if it triggers anything
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:49 am

kiwi dave wrote:
Are you getting the batteries from the same source?  I've observed the Indian FTR1200 have experienced a run of dud batteries (including mine) that replacement is the only cure.  Batteries should last a reasonable time.

No, I figure its a combination of the bad starter motor, short rides and the parasitic drain. In 5 years time I've replaced 3 Yuasa batteries (they last 1 year) 1 el-cheapo battery (lasted 4 months), 1 lithium battery (lasted 10 months working perfectly but dead after a complete discharge after I left in in the bike while I was hospitalized for 2 weeks) and now this is the second lithium which I installed in november. All of them are from different vendors. The previous owner of the bike had issues with dead batteries and difficult starts too, and his dealer was unable to solve it.

I do follow the correct instructions when installing a new battery. I don't just put it in and go.
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:05 am

So today in freezing temperatures I decided to disassemble the dash which was a lot easier than I thought.

I've tried disconnecting every small connector in the dash (indicator lights and some that I don't know the purpose of) but these connectors had no effect on the drain, it was still there.
Removing the main connector however did remove the drain (see pics).

With main connector connected:

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With main connector disconnected:
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Can this rule out some components? Is it the dash itself that is the cause of the drain? Or can it still be the ECU or other components that are perhaps linked to the dash?
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:40 pm


It could be the dash. Components connected to the dash include the fuel level sensor, key switch antenna, air temperature sensor, oil pressure sensor, and the turn indicators. Oh, and the ECU.

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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:00 pm

beetle wrote:

It could be the dash. Components connected to the dash include the fuel level sensor, key switch antenna, air temperature sensor, oil pressure sensor, and the turn indicators. Oh, and the ECU.


Okey so not really narrowing much down Laughing  Is that everything connected to the dash that could drain power? I've disconnected the turn indicators from the dash so I can rule those out at least. I'll try to disconnect the ECU tomorrow. I'm a bit scared of it so I've been postponing it.

If I disconnect the ECU, will that narrow anything further down? Sorry for all the questions but I can't make heads or tails from the wiring schematic regarding which part is powered from which other part.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:23 pm


If it were one of the sensors leaking to ground, I would expect that sensor to be inoperative. It's unlikely to be the antenna, as it's connected only to the dash. If you have the ambient temperature displayed correctly on the dash, you can maybe rule that out.  If the oil pressure sensor stays off, it may not prove anything..so you might want to check that..but it means removing the tank. The fuel level sensor is easy, just unplug the main tank connector, which is accessible by removing the right wing.

Don't be afraid to disconnect the ECU, the connectors are keyed, and unless you are unduly rough, you can't hurt anything. Disconnecting the ECU will narrow things down further.



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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:24 am

beetle wrote:

If it were one of the sensors leaking to ground, I would expect that sensor to be inoperative. It's unlikely to be the antenna, as it's connected only to the dash. If you have the ambient temperature displayed correctly on the dash, you can maybe rule that out.  If the oil pressure sensor stays off, it may not prove anything..so you might want to check that..but it means removing the tank. The fuel level sensor is easy, just unplug the main tank connector, which is accessible by removing the right wing.

Don't be afraid to disconnect the ECU, the connectors are keyed, and unless you are unduly rough, you can't hurt anything. Disconnecting the ECU will narrow things down further.




Thanks Beetle. I disconnected the ECU today and it was indeed incredibly simple. I disconnected the bike's left side connector first, the drain did not stop. Then I disconnected the right side connector and the drain was still unaffected. So it seems the drain is unrelated to the ECU or any parts that draw power from it.

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The fuel sensor I already checked by disconnecting the big connector. So possible culprits left are:

The key switch antenna (unlikely)
Air sensor (unlikely as temperature is displayed correctly)
Oil pressure sensor
The dash itself

Anything I'm missing?

ps. how would a malfunctioning oil pressure sensor drain 50mA? Wouldn't a malfunction causing it to drain power automatically trigger a low oil pressure warning on the dash as that's the entire point of the thing?
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:18 am

ps. does anyone know if the key switch (immobilizer) antenna and air temperature sensors are connected to the dash through the main dash connector or one of the smaller connectors (like the indicators are). If the latter I can rule those out as well.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:34 pm


The antenna has a connector located in the wiring loom bundle near the headstock.

The air temperature sensor is part of the dash circuit.

I would expect the oil pressure sensor leaking would throw errors, but stranger things have happened. If the antenna being disconnected doesn’t show a change, you’ve really only got the oil pressure sensor or the dash itself left.



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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:42 pm

Thanks Beetle, I'll try to find the antenna connector tomorrow and after that I'll remove the tank to check the oil pressure sensor.
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:04 am

Finito! cheers  Well not entirely scratch

I removed the tank today, which went relatively well aside from the fuel connector (using mr Roper's open wrench 12 technique did the trick). I unplugged the oil pressure sensor and also the engine temperature sensor for good measure. None of these affected the amp draw unfortunately.

I was also able to identify the antenna wire and traced that back to the dash. The connector for that is actually inside the dash cover on my bike. However I was unable to disconnect that due to a sudden downpour. I think I disconnected every connector inside the dash cover last week but I'm going to double check tomorrow.

So assuming the antenna also has no effect, is the dash itself the only remaining option? If I'm going to purchase a new dash I really need to be sure that is the problem because its not a cheap part Sad

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Afterwards I cleaned things up as there was a lot of dirt under the tank. Most importantly I learned some things about my bike!

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2highlander
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:15 am

In Your former pics which showed the removal of the ECU the fitting of its ground line looked very corroded. Do yourself a little favour and clean that as good as possible. Maybe a locked ground connection causes other parts to pull voltage to ground.
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:45 am

I wasn't aware a bad ground could actually cause a drain. I've cleaned the ECU ground and also disconnected the immobilizer antenna. However neither of these had an effect on the amp leakage.


I've created this to give a better overview what I've checked by now. Green circle = checked:

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:43 pm


Looking like it's the dash. Sad


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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:35 am

Looking at the schematic and what I haven't checked, pretty much everything can be excluded I think as its powered through the small fusebox. However the key switch (13) itself seems powered independently by the 30A circuit and is linked to the dash. Is there any reason that can be excluded as the culprit?
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:31 am

Well I got lucky I think and found this new dash on ebay for a bargain (well...compared to the dealer price). Took the gamble (it's from Estonia but that shouldn't matter) so hopefully that will do the trick.

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:51 am

Is it new? If not do you know the user code?
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:07 am

Yes it is 'new old stock' apparently. Out of the original packaging but still has the plastic film protecting the screen.
I assume its just a straight swap?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:18 am

Yup. It will ask you to enter a user code. Do so.
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Battery woes   Battery woes - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:25 pm

The new dash arrived in good order today. Will install it tomorrow and hopefully that fixes the issue. If not at least I'll have a spare dash Smile
I also figured out the voltage drop issue while starting. I did a series of voltage drop tests on the starter circuit and those where all within the acceptable margins. Tried a different starter motor and it still gave the same issue of having to keep the start button pressed to overrule the ecu in order to start and the dash completely blanking out during the start.
Pulled out the starter relay and replaced it with an old relay that I still had lying around that I had pre-emptively replaced 3 years ago because it had green oxidation at the bottom... problem solved 🙈 So a bad relay.

Update: WOOHOO! Replacing the dash fixed the mysterious drain! Time for a naked victory celebration Pillage!

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