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 The definitive guide to Rollerisation

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BetaSteve
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Frederico Pessoa
Squinternotto
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Frederico Pessoa


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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:40 am

Hello again! I´m relativelly new here, but got aware about the Rolarization. My Guzzi GRiSO is the year Model 2009, so Kit C is the right for it right?
I took my Guzzi to the shop to better analyse the Rolarization necessity, and here are the pics:


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It seems I need to do it, so now is important to get the details to proper access all parts. What are the part numbers to order to run a Rolarization procedure?
Any good place to order any Guzzi parts in US?

Best Regards For all.

Fred
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:35 am

Yes, you'll need a 'C' kit or a 'B' kit and the extra parts needed to convert it to a 'C' kit.

'C' kit part # is 1A002082.

For whatever reason availability of all kits is dreadful at the moment. If you are shopping in the US I'd suggest trying AF1 in Texas.

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Frederico Pessoa
Squinternotto
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Frederico Pessoa


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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:41 pm

Thank you very much!! I´m getting in contact with the supplier suggested and hopefully all parts will be in stock!
I will keep you posted!
And again, much appreciated for the support.
Best

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markymarq
Montanarolo
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Join date : 2022-09-22

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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:10 am

Hello Pete and the GG Crew … looking for some thoughts and feedback on my situation.

I have a 2010 GRiSO 1200 with approximately 12,300 miles. I bought it used. I’m the third owner and just learned about the tappet issue. I pulled the rocker cover and confirmed that it still has the flat tappets. I also confirmed that I have the older style plug tube, and I do not have the drill/punch mark on the cylinder head. Kit C (or B kit with additional pieces) required for the conversion.

I called the two nearest Moto Guzzi repair centers near me in Northern California. Monroe Motors in San Francisco is going to check on the status of the bike with MG, but the rep said that they’ve only done one conversion that he can remember, and even if MG supplied the kit it would require about 18 hours labor. (Does this seem right?) I also tried the other service center, Elk Grove Powersports in Sacramento, but they don’t work on any bike that is more than 10 years old. I also tried a couple local independent repair centers but they are reluctant to work on a MG.

Since it looks like I’m out of luck from getting help from a service center I’m thinking of ordering the kit and doing the job myself. I’m pretty good mechanically – I’ve pulled apart the top end of my 2005 Ford F350 6.0 diesel to replace the well-known high-pressure oil pump fitting that fails, replaced a cracked short block on a MerCruiser V-8, replaced starters and alternators on multiple vehicles, do brakes, etc. However, as I understand with the C Kit, you have to pull the cylinder head to install the shims. I’ve never pulled a cylinder head on a bike and worked on lifters, etc.

I have the tools to do the job, but not the confidence. Yet. I would really appreciate anyone’s feedback on the complexity of taking on the Kit C job. Thank you so much!

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 24, 2022 3:27 pm

18 hours! Where do these dipshits get their times from? Perhaps they're blind and have to do everything by feel? It takes Michael about 6.5 hours to do a 'C' kit on a GRiSO and that includes dropping the sump and spacer to do the spacer gasket and a full tune-up and remap afterwards and he's in a wheelchair! 18 hours! Fuck me lonesome!

Do it yourself. Just take your time and if you have problems? Stop and ask BEFORE you screw something up but it's really not 'Difficult' type difficult.

Biggest problem at the moment will be finding a kit. They are in very short supply and with many factories in Europe furloughing their workers and stopping production due to the energy embargo on Russia and the approaching winter that is unlikely to change any time soon.

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markymarq
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 24, 2022 3:57 pm

Pete ... Thank you for confirming that stupid assessment that Monroe gave me. I'm going to do it! More to come!

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:00 pm

People who quote such absurd times obviously don't know the bike or their trade. How they continue to get away with talking such shit beggars belief!

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BowraBoy
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:16 pm

Goodonyer Marky Mark!

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sal
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:03 am

Newbie from Melbourne here, this is a great thread, thanks for the excellent info. It's clarified several things for me . I'm considering an early model GRiSO 1200 , low kilometers but not rollerised. I now know that it'll need a C kit .

What I don't know is whether the type C kits are currently available in Australia? nor if theres someone in Melbourne proficient in doing them, or if I'd have to learn to do it myself, lol.

Many thanks for an informative thread.
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Clancy
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:15 pm

sal wrote:
nor if theres someone in Melbourne proficient in doing them, or if I'd have to learn to do it myself, lol.

Bungendore isn't really that far from Melbourne on the slab.
And Pete & Michael (Moto Moda) know their shit!
Their business comes from all over the eastern states.

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sal
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:22 pm

That is an option, yes.

The proposed bike has a staintune muffler so I could probably get the tappets , fuel mapping etc all done at once.

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:31 pm

Yes, you could.

Right at the moment there are precisely zero kits available world wide as far as I can make out. I currently have three B kits and two A kits on backorder from my supplier in Europe and no timeline for delivery. It seems it's the same everywhere.

The last kits I received I ordered in January and received them in July. My joy was tempered somewhat when I opened the box of one of them and found it contained two left hand camboxes! Rolling Eyes so off it went back to Europe. I'm still waiting on a replacement.

As usual any bike that we haven't dealt with previously will almost certainly require its swingarm and shock linkage bearings greasing or replacing and and as that requires removing the bevelbox we Loctite the pinion nut at the same time. Since we always drop the sump to clean it out as part of the rollerisation process we will, unless instructed otherwise, drop the sump spacer and replace the spacer gasket due to their fragility with the thicker aftermarket type. Airbox drain hoses are another thing vital to check as they become hard and frangible over time.

Once sorted they are a stupendously reliable and fun motorbike. Getting there takes a bit of effort, that's all.

As for Melbourne and Victoria? Since Rob at Guzzi Repairs has shut up shop due to I'll health I can't think of anyone other than Brad who I'd trust with a modern Guzzi. Sucks but there it is.

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markymarq
Montanarolo
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markymarq


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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:29 pm

Hello Pete and GG Crew - Following up ... thanks to Pete's super helpful how-to video I pulled the left side cambox out today and confirmed significant damage to the tappets. Most of the photos that I've seen online have some of the DLC etched away, but not all of it like mine. When I changed oil last (shortly before I learned about the tappet issue) there was some black accumulation on the magnetic drain plug. Not a lot ... just a little bit and I didn't think that much of it at the time. Would appreciate your thoughts about the condition of my tappets compared to others you've seen. I will plan on pulling the oil sump as part of the process but if there are other steps I should take I would appreciate those too.  Thanks again for the amazing assistance!

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:41 pm

They're pretty far gone but I've seen worse. The reason why most of the pics I've posted show comparatively minor damage is because after I became cognisant of the severity of the problem I instituted a policy of inspecting every flat tappet bike that came through the shop. That's when I discovered they were all failing. After that catching them early was easy.

I have plenty that look as bad or worse than the bad one in your pics, and that doesn't count the hundreds of tappets that have already gone for scrap. Yours are nothing unusual.

The sad thing is I'm still getting calls on a weekly basis from people wanting reassurance that it won't happen to them. Their shop or dealer has told them either that failures are rare, that it's an 'Internet myth' or simply deny any knowledge of the issue at all. Quite often my warnings are met with what I can tell by the tone of voice, is a degree of skepticism. It's incredibly frustrating. Do people honestly believe I have some sort of 'Hidden agenda'? If so, what possible benefit could I garner from perpetuating such a *Hoax*?

One thing I'm sure of is that time to fix bikes that haven't yet been rollerised is running out. For all I know it may already of run out. I've currently got two A kits and three B kits on backorder. Last time I received them was a par of B kits I got in July or August and they had been on backorder since January!

The very youngest of the flat tappet bikes is now over ten years old. Regardless of whether the problem was a design flaw or a manufacturing defect Piaggio is unlikely to keep honouring claims for much longer and already many quite important, if not critical parts for the CARC series have ceased manufacture.

Sadly, unlike the old Loops and Tonti's with their high proportion of parts interchangeability, long history of manufacturing and much higher volume sales there is no burgeoning aftermarket for the CARC series, it's one of the, (Perhaps slightly paranoid!) reasons I have three Grisos and a Stelvio!

All I can do is advise anyone with an unrollerised 8V to act now, if not sooner, to get a kit. It may already be too late but you won't know if you don't try. Leave it much longer though and you may well end up with a two wheeled paperweight.

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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:59 pm

Pete
As bits become NLA - is there any value in trying to work out why these MG cams running bucket followers at up to 8.5k rpm seem to fall apart compared to Tonti cams running bucket followers at up to 8k rpm?  

If it is not too little oil in the camshaft baths..  could it be too much? Cavitation is a well known destroyer of fast moving metal.

I suppose my thoughts lead to cutting a lower weir on the camshaft bath and seeing if a flatty lasts longer?
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markymarq
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:09 pm

Thanks again Pete. I've parked the GRiSO until I can get a kit and install it. AF1 website says they expect receiving in December but last month it said November so my guess is it's an automated update and they don't really know. Appreciate the help!
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:34 pm

lcjohnny wrote:
Pete
As bits become NLA - is there any value in trying to work out why these MG cams running bucket followers at up to 8.5k rpm seem to fall apart compared to Tonti cams running bucket followers at up to 8k rpm?  

If it is not too little oil in the camshaft baths..  could it be too much? Cavitation is a well known destroyer of fast moving metal.

I suppose my thoughts lead to cutting a lower weir on the camshaft bath and seeing if a flatty lasts longer?



If I may...

It's not a matter of oil. The 8V head is a completely different animal to the pushrod motors. Just have a look at how the cams activate the valves and it will become clear.


The DLC was perhaps poorly implemented, or not up to the task given how the 8V works. Maybe titanium tappets would have worked?






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sal
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri Oct 07, 2022 4:05 pm

The risk of no kits being available is certainly off-putting. It's one thing to know that you'll spend $12k+ on the bike and then need another $2k or so to do the engine top end. But it's another thing altogether if that work simply can't be done anymore. The value of rollerised examples will climb, though.

I need to do some research/ wait to see if C kits become available , before jumping in methinks.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:44 pm

I'm pretty sure I know why the destruction occurs with the DLC coated tappets. It has nothing to do with the oil or it's quantity.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:48 pm

sal wrote:
The risk of no kits being available is certainly off-putting.  It's one thing to know that you'll spend $12k+ on the bike and then need another $2k or so to do the engine top end. But it's another thing altogether if that work simply can't be done anymore.  The value of rollerised examples will climb, though.

I need to do some research/ wait to see if C kits become available ,  before jumping in methinks.

I currently have three 'B' kits and two 'A' kits on backorder. I'm cautiously optimistic they will eventually arrive. All the 'B' kits are spoken for. As is one of the 'A' kits. There are still a lot of people out there who are either ignorant of the issue or in denial.
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sal
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:36 pm

If a B kit turned up, are the extras to turn it into a C fairly available, Pete?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:52 pm

Yes

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sal
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:00 pm

Cheers. Thank you.
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evansnows
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:47 pm

Since it looks like roller conversions are not going to be an option in future is it possible to get the failing tappets replaced with the same component in a different material ?

It would involve research with experienced metallurgists but I think a solution could be found
and once roller conversions aren't an option it seems the only way forward.

I've read that low oil temperature and water contamination of the oil could be the cause of the problem.
My GRiSO came from Japan, it had done over 50,000 ks with no conversion. The tappets should have been in terrible condition. They weren't.
From the condition of the bike it had always been garaged and not left outside at night, which I think would mitigate condensation.

Recently I went for a 100 k ride and left the bike outside overnight. The next day for some reason I needed to remove the rocker cover and there was water contaminated oil inside the cover.
The bike had obviously got hot enough to evaporate any water in the oil during the ride.
So the overnight parking with the change in temperature and humidity in an alloy cover looks to be the cause.
I normally park the bike in my workshop and never have had contamination problems.
Just some thoughts on the issue. It would be a sad day that unrollerised Grisos became unsalvagable

I polished the rocker covers over 6 months ago now. I sprayed with a clear metal coating after polishing.
To my mind much smarter than the original painted finish.

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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: The definitive guide to Rollerisation   The definitive guide to Rollerisation - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:34 am

I doubt it, Guzzi tried and failed (presume using tribolgists & metalurgists - but who knows) to upgrade the original tappets with the harder surfaces.....design problems often need redesign of hardware as better oil & better surface treatments/coatings & softer operating environments can only go so far.

Wouldn't it be 'easier' to just copy the proven solution Rollerisation parts & 'pattern' make them ?? I'm surprised there aren't chinese knock-offs on ebay already .... economically it would likely be cheaper just to write off any remaining unrollerised bikes once OEM kits are done & recyle all the other bits into legacy support.
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