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 Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama

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Red Leader
JohnA
motor-timothy
Papa Lazarou
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lcjohnny
Matias
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moto
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama   Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:57 pm

Matias wrote:
Hi Moto,

I must say I was impressed with the sofistication of the solution you came up with...
You must be the Guru on the subject, so maybe you can give me your opinion on this theory...I believe a saw this idea in some thread....it doesn't sound bad:
- Consider you are not exposed to a big amplitude of atmospheric pressures
- Would it work to seal the cluster completely, having just an elastic membrane (not permeable to water molecules, if that is possible...), or a small tube with a piston inside, that would move inwards or outwards to compensate for those small atmospheric pressure variations...
Could this work or would the water molecules still find their way in through the plastic material structures?

Thanks,
Matias


Hi Matias,

Well, since you asked.

For a long time I had thought about using a flexible membrane just the way you described, but finally realized it would be permeable to water vapor if it were made of any material I could think of or find. The piston is good idea. It would have to have an excellent, long-lasting seal around it.

I went far enough down that path to consider the air pressure difference between sea level and, I think, 10,000 feet. A piston could work, if sealed. But the seal would also have to have negligible stiction so that its resistance to movement would not mask actual elevation changes.

When I researched the matter I lost hope that any plastic material would resist infiltration of water vapor for long. (I think I posted a link in the original thread to an engineering table that showed the amount of transmission over time for set areas of plastic and other material barriers. Interestingly, it is only the exposed area, not the thickness, that counts in the long run, as I recall.)

I now think I may have let the "perfect be the enemy of the good" in abandoning all hope of effective barriers. There has been a change in the venting of the GRiSO dash over time, where the two, original small baffled breathing ports have been replaced by a single, larger port that has a membrane stretched across it. The engineers at Digitek were evidently aware of the moisture problem and made the change for that reason. Though that barrier cannot, as I understand it, block gaseous water (i.e., water vapor) for long, it can go a good job on mists. This change may have helped to the degree that mist ingestion is an important part of the problem. I seem not to see so many postings any more about failed dashes.

Moto
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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama   Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:24 pm

Thanks for the reply Moto.

Unfortunately I can confirm the second version of the dash with the membrane didn't solved the problem.
My first dash was of the first version with the 2 small baffled vents. It was replaced during warrantly by the second version with the membrane. It seemed to work in the beginning. It took a while for the moisture to get, but it did...and it seems it is more complicate to get out...
An alternative to the piston:
- What if you would connect to the vent a tube with a "U" shape, to work as a siphon, with some water-repelent oil inside?
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moto
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PostSubject: Re: Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama   Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:00 pm

Matias wrote:
Thanks for the reply Moto.

Unfortunately I can confirm the second version of the dash with the membrane didn't solved the problem.
My first dash was of the first version with the 2 small baffled vents. It was replaced during warrantly by the second version with the membrane. It seemed to work in the beginning. It took a while for the moisture to get, but it did...and it seems it is more complicate to get out...
An alternative to the piston:
- What if you would connect to the vent a tube with a "U" shape, to work as a siphon, with some water-repelent oil inside?

Hi Matias,

I had not seen a previous report of moisture ingress with the new design. But I am not too surprised. I guess your new dash has not failed yet?

The U-shaped tube with oil inside is also good. The water-repellant nature of an oil might depend on surface-tension properties of water droplets. (I am just speculating.) If so, gaseous water, which of course has no surface tension as separated molecules, might penetrate the oil surface just as it penetrates plastics. Scientists may have investigated this.

I would also be concerned about the effects of the motorcycle's vibrations and dynamic loads on the oil. Will it aerate? If so, can the water vapor portion of the air escape more easily then? I don't know.

Here's another idea I vaguely remember considering. Since, as I mentioned, the rate of passage through a vapor barrier is a function only of the material's surface area, a thin foil or membrane of a metal could be quite effective as a containment, the permeability coefficients for metals being extremely low. (These coefficients have some other name than "permeability," I think.) Maybe a pleated piece of metal foil in the form of a bellows could do the job, assuming its edges could all be sealed well, including over any folds. (NASA would use gold foil, of course, which is not too expensive and might be easier to solder.)

After a while I grew impatient with mechanical contraptions that I knew would be hard for me to perfect. I decided to create an external desiccator using the tubing guides I found below the dash, and only later realized a conformal coating might be even better.  

Moto
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PostSubject: Re: Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama   Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:21 pm

I'll add another point after having re-read the impressive exchange of ideas on the first page.

The problem for the dash does not occur while the water is condensed on the inside of the clear cover. Instead, it is a "rust never sleeps" situation, where the water works its damage while it is not visible, but is sitting condensed on the printed circuit board. This is a pretty obvious point, but it also means that anything you can do to reduce humidity while the bike is in the garage (or stored over the winter) will be much more important that what happens while you are riding around, simply because of the relative amounts of time involved. So this argues strongly for solutions involving bags of desiccants enclosing parked GRiSO dashes, I think.

Moto
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sideshowbob
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PostSubject: Re: Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama   Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:25 pm

Climate controlled garage, with a dehumidifier. Helps with many other issues also.
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama   Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:49 pm

Mine (1200 Sport) used to but suddenly stopped one day. It might have been a 40+ degree day where the bike was parked in the full sun. It took the dash about 1/2 hour to cool down enough for me to see the details. Since then, no issues.

However, I then got ants in the dash, multiple times, very annoying - they died under the clear Perspex and not behind the workings, as they should have. Now I have desiccated ant carcases in my dash - choice!

I couldn't be arsed pulling it all apart - besides my ability to see really small shit is diminishing, as is my dexterity. Fuck getting old sucks.


Last edited by Oz1200Guzzi on Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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moto
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PostSubject: Re: Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama   Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:56 pm

sideshowbob wrote:
Climate controlled garage, with a dehumidifier. Helps with many other issues also.

Right. I wonder if anyone with a climate controlled garage and a dehumidifier has ever experienced a failure. Anyone?
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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama   Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:41 pm

Hi,
Thanks Moto. Thanks to all.
To reply to your question Moto, no, my new dash as not failed yet. It would be great if the manufacturer would have decided to coat the circuit board like you did, but I doubt it...Anyway, even with the circuits protected, that fog over the instruments is anoying enough...
Once those humid days come I will report how did it go with the sílica bags
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PostSubject: Re: Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama   Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:02 am

Oz1200Guzzi wrote:
Mine (1200 Sport) used to but suddenly stopped one day. It might have been a 40+ degree day where the bike was parked in the full sun. It took the dash about 1/2 hour to cool down enough for me to see the details. Since then, no issues.

However, I then got ants in the dash, multiple times, very annoying - they died under the clear Perspex and not behind the workings, as they should have. Now I have desiccated ant carcases in my dash - choice!

I couldn't be arsed pulling it all apart - besides my ability to see really small shit is diminishing, as is my dexterity. Fuck getting old sucks.
Hi Oz,
Lets hope your ants get thirsty and drink all that condensated water 😁...
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama   Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:25 am

Desiccated == dead and dried out. So no, I don't think that will happen, Matias
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama   Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:20 am

Maybe the desiccated ant corpses absorb the moisture within the air inside the dash! This could be the ultimate solution to our problem!
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sideshowbob
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PostSubject: Re: Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama   Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:43 pm

moto wrote:
sideshowbob wrote:
Climate controlled garage, with a dehumidifier. Helps with many other issues also.

Right. I wonder if anyone with a climate controlled garage and a dehumidifier has ever experienced a failure. Anyone?

I have not.
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kubbie
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PostSubject: Re: Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama   Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:23 pm

I'm from Florida, hot and humid. Just got back from a mountain trip to North Carolina, 20 degrees cooler and no where near the humidity.
I always have a small amount of condensation on the lower right corner whenever its cool out.

But this trip as soon as I fired up the bike it fogged up instantly and took a couple hours to clear.

The idea I had was that it doesn't need more vent holes.... it needs a vacuum to draw the moisture out. But how to accomplish this on a bike?

Then it hit me. Use a line coming from one of the intake vacuum ports! That and a small valve petcock valve. In theory it can suck the air (and moisture with it) out. Hopefully it would only need to be run a few minutes. The valve would be to keep gas vapor from flowing up into the speedo when bike is off.

Haven't done it yet... just an idea bouncing round in my head.
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama   Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:31 pm

That would work! Provided the air being drawn in is low in humidity, say < 40% RH, which is quite dry, in reality.
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PostSubject: Re: Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama   Instrument Cluster Condensation Drama - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:06 pm

kubbie wrote:
I'm from Florida, hot and humid. Just got back from a mountain trip to North Carolina, 20 degrees cooler and no where near the humidity.
I always have a small amount of condensation on the lower right corner whenever its cool out.

But this trip as soon as I fired up the bike it fogged up instantly and took a couple hours to clear.

The idea I had was that it doesn't need more vent holes.... it needs a vacuum to draw the moisture out. But how to accomplish this on a bike?

Then it hit me. Use a line coming from one of the intake vacuum ports! That and a small valve petcock valve. In theory it can suck the air (and moisture with it) out. Hopefully it would only need to be run a few minutes. The valve would be to keep gas vapor from flowing up into the speedo when bike is off.

Haven't done it yet... just an idea bouncing round in my head.

This was suggested in that thread on the other site that was referenced on the first page. I raised a concern that introducing a passage between the intake manifold and the dash would upset the pressure comparison between those two spots that the ECU uses to set engine parameters. But if it were a small passage and only open for a short time it wouldn't make much difference I suppose.

If you do this, you should take advantage of one or both of the ventilation tubing guides that Guzzi provided in the bracket that holds the dash. The guides are right below the original baffled vents of the first-generation dash. Finding these was not quite like finding the Lost Ark in the Indiana Jones movie, but it was pretty exciting: The Guzzi engineers were planning a tubing-based ventilation system that was later abandoned!

Here is a photo showing my own ventilation tubes passing through those abandoned guides:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

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