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 Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder

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Kiwi_Roy
svru
Steak
TheMuffinMan
Lazlokovacs
BrianD
Pete Roper
beetle
lcjohnny
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu May 26, 2022 3:09 am

@Pete
Thanks for the offer. Ivwill probably take you up on that but first (when i get back to blighty this weekend) i will plug in Guzzi Diag to see if it tells me more than the lack of diagnostic codes
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu May 26, 2022 8:24 am

@beetle
I have tried your suggestion of ...disconnecting the battery +ve and switching the key on to let any caps discharge in the ECU.

30a fuses out, ignition on, waited 10 min, ignition off fuses in and turned it on. Dashboard went through reboot.

Result!
Bike now running on two but red triangle is on even after i cleared "SERVICE" indicator. No diagnostic codes showing. Will still get a lift to Bilbao then ride it back from Portsmouth .

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu May 26, 2022 2:00 pm


Win!


cheers




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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 30, 2022 11:24 am

Update - after resetting the ECU according to Mark (beetle)'s instructions i got 2 cylinders working and rode the bike the 120 miles from Portsmouth to Bristol (long way round so if it stopped my wife would be near a station Very Happy  ! ) the engine felt healthy and ran on two cylinders all the way.

The red triangle of doom was there all the way and the SERVICE light was on, it threw was it's usual occasional missed fire at tickover but nothing else. Thanks to Mark, Pete and everyone else suggesting things

Just completed a GuzziDiag session results are.
  No strange readings on the measurements page
  Active Faults = none
  Stored Faults = "PO352 Coil Rt : to high"
Cleared faults and the SERVICE light went off then 5 seconds later it returned with the same Stored Fault returning as well.

Am i right to guess that this tells me nothing new and the ECU is flakey and best replaced?

Jon
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 30, 2022 11:58 am

@Pete
You said that "Just find a Ducati W5AM with the same HW number"

Mine does not appear to have an HW number it has IAW 5AM 978406 on one side and "52" on the other (see pictures).

If you do have a reasonable one on the shelf i would be very grateful. The postage looks to be around the £50 mark but make up a fair number for the whole package and I will transfer it to you.
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No visible damage to the ecu but I found a lot of corrosion between the ecu and its heatsink/mounting - thay may not have helped (picture)
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svru
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 30, 2022 2:50 pm

HW610 from a duc worked fine for me. Since 2017.

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 30, 2022 2:57 pm

I can't see the postage being £50! I'll dig one out for you if you wish as a loaner but HW 610 as mentioned is what to look for, then just load up the map. Lemme know if you want to proceed?
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 30, 2022 3:40 pm


HW610

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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue May 31, 2022 12:14 am

Thanks Beetle I was just a bit hesitant as mine isn't marked HW610 have bought that one.

Thanks Pete I will buy the one that Mark spotted at that price it is a good gamble that it is working and healthy.

Jon
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:25 am

I scanned through the thread but I didn't see any mention of checking the plug leads.
If you measure from the plug cap to chassis on both sides it should read the same resistance, i'm guessing about 8k Ohms.
Sometimes Guzzi fit the nasty carbon core resistance lead, resistor caps and resister plugs, if one resistor is good 3 must be even better eh!
The resistor lead can arc away at the ends effectively creating a gap which the spark has to jump. It often shows up as a miss under acceleration when its harder for the spark to jump the plug gap. As a temporary measure I have poked a strand of copper wire or a sewing pin in the ends of the cables but copper core leads are the real fix.
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:21 am

Hi Roy
In the first stage of investigation i swapped plug caps, leads and coils from side to side as one unit and the fault stayed on the right.

I have replaced the original leads with copper feeding NGK caps

Thanks for your input -think and hope i have been thorough in investigating.
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:14 pm

lcjohnny wrote:
@Pete
You said  

No visible damage to the ecu but I found a lot of corrosion between the ecu and its heatsink/mounting - thay may not have helped (picture)
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I believe the ECU uses the ground to the chassis as the ground path
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See it shows a blue wire going to the bottom RH corner
Take one of the coils for example, they are fed 12 Volts via the red/black wire from the relay (29)
The other side of the coil goes to the ECU where it is grounded internally by a transistor, if there is corrosion between the ECU and chassis it cannot ground the coil properly. (I wonder if that's what the fault message is trying to tell you)
Clean the corrosion off the ECE and the chassis and re-attach it with some grease on the mating surfaces, the grease will exclude water and prevent a re-occurence of the corrosion. You could also sandwich a good conductor in between the steel chassis and the aluminium heat sink e.g.a well grounded aluminium sheet (like metals don't corrode as much).
I don't understand electrochemical cells as much as I should but it may be a buildup of Voltage across the faulty ground is what caused most of the corrosion, I'm sure my ex work buddy process engineers would have something to say about that.
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:43 pm

Hi Roy
that is an interesting thought - the ECU has a separate earth bolt but as you say it is on the bracket/cooler not the ecu itrself.
The corrosion does imply electrolytic activity. I will try cleaning the surfaces and using some electrically conductive thermal paste see if the fault message goes away.

I am not terribly hopeful because as i recorded on my post Wed May 25, 2022 3:19 pm i was getting different voltage readings on the coils specifically around 9 to 11v on the blue/green from the Rt coil. I am guessing that the Secondary Injector relay gives the coils and injectors 12v down the brown/red and then ecu puts the blue/green on the right (or orange/green on the left) to earth and interrupts that to initiate a spark?

If so seeing 9-11v on the blue/green is not good?
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:38 am

Hi All
2nd hand HW610 ecu from a Ducati 748 fitted and Mark's map loaded (Autolearning and TPS done).

Running very nicely with no SERVICE signs or error messages current or historic (also ticking over evenly without the 1 in 20 misfire it used to do).

Thank you all for the help.

BtW Kiwi-Roy before i replaced the ECU i tried the old one with the corrosion scraped off both surfaces and no resistance measurable between the ecu and the heatsink/mounting.  The ECU returned the same error message and warning 5 secs after clearing.  I could not see any change in the problem so any problem that the corrosion did was not reversible.

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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:52 pm


cheers




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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:46 am

If I might ask, does the '08 Sport 1200 2V also use the HW610? And is the Ducati 848 unit plug 'n play, pin wise, (besides the map?)

such as this one:

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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 05, 2022 1:35 pm

Yep. same same

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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:43 pm

As i now have an old and broken ECU i did what any normal bloke would do...and took a look inside -

Pictures below all clean and no sign of leaks, heat or corrosion damage.

The wires connecting up from the edge of the board to the terminals were like hairs and tore as soon as i opened it Very Happy so not serviceable by me.
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:19 pm

I don't suppose you have an ultraviolet flashlight. But if you do, you could shine it on the board in the ECU to see if it has a conformal coating. I've always wondered. (The original version of the dash didn't have one.)
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:51 pm

Sorry i don't have any uv lights
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:08 am

Opening your ECU reminds me of....[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder   Breakdown, ignition failur Rt cylinder - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:45 am

paulbrice wrote:
Opening your ECU reminds me of....

Ha yes absolutely I look at all that and have no idea if it is live or dead.

Bit sad really - probably got more components than the whole engine but beyond my abilities Sad
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