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 Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100

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motografando
Matias
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun May 05, 2024 9:39 am

Forgot to mention I permanently removed passenger pegs, so without SACHS reservoir & no passenger peg; bolt is much easier to see on mine !
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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun May 05, 2024 12:07 pm

It's a differet ball game with the Stelvio shock Paul...
The reservoir from the stock shock blocks the access completely.
I will try with the side panel on. If it doesn't work I will try by removing it before going for the airbox.
Anyway, the operation is on Smile . These are the planned costs, so far:
- Hyperpro SP-MG11-SSB006 spring from Officine 08 - 132€ (taxes and shipment included)
- Suspension Conrod link complete with needle bearings, seals, inner races/spacers from Gutsibits- 218€ (taxes + shipment included)
- Shock rebuild in a local specilized shop - 180€

Pete, the needle bearings, seals, etc. shown below are not coming along (of course) with the Conrod. Should I order them or do you think I might get along with a lubrication? Are those usually very damaged in the bikes you have repaired?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun May 05, 2024 12:39 pm

If you are buying the double conrod part# 055603300000 it comes, or should come, complete. That is with all bearings and the 'Pins' or inner races. If it doesn't? You're being stiffed. If you are thinking of buying from that supplier it wouldn't surprise me for a moment. Also, not being part of the EU, their price to you will almost certainly be higher than buying within the EU. TLM have one in stock for €225.00

The reason I bang on about about wear, due to rust, in these parts is because they very rarely, if ever, come from the factory properly lubricated. This means that when water gets in they rust. Once they rust they disintegrate. When the needles disintegrate the bearings can't work properly. If the bearings can't work the suspension can't work.

Look. You may be one of the incredibly lucky people whose bike was built the morning the Grease Fairy visited the factory! But I wouldn't bank on it. The easy thing to do is just remove it, along with the swingarm to check the bearings, and you'll know. Your bike is now over fifteen years old. Unless it's never been ridden in the rain and only has very low Km I'll put my money on the whole thing being a rusty mess.



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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun May 05, 2024 6:12 pm

I am buying the "Triangular" Conrod with the three holes. That comes with everything (bearings, seals, pins. But I am not buying the "Wishbone-like" link, and so I believe I'm not getting the bearings, seals and pin of the ancorage of that link to the chassis.
I believe I'm one of the lucky ones Pete. I greased those bushings one or two years ago and they were not so bad. It's a fact that this bike has hardly seen rain, and sleeps always in the garage...
I should check the swingarm as well, but I am short of the special tool for that casteled nut....
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun May 05, 2024 10:13 pm

There is no need for a special tool. A simple 'C' spanner is perfectly adequate for the castellated nut. A 14mm Allen key or better yet an Allen key socket is required for the swingarm spindle itself.
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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 06, 2024 12:28 am

OK Pete....I can manage a C spanner...
But I will not be able to use the torque wrench.
These bearings are conical, so they can manage some axial pressure, right? (without exagerating, of course...)
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 06, 2024 1:18 am

We've been through this a thousand times on this board while talking about both frame bearings and the ones in the bevelbox. Opposed tapered roller bearings that don't have a solid spacer simply need to be preloaded enough to remove all play from the bearings so the shaft they support can't move axially or radially but it can still spin. It is exactly the same principle one uses when preloading trailer wheel bearings on the 6x4 trailer you use to tow garden rubbish to the tip at the weekend! Only with wheel bearings the bearings spin on the shaft rather than the shaft pivoting in the bearings in the case of the swingarm or steering stem.

In fact the wretched manuals for these bikes are spectacularly useless when it comes to setting the preload of both the steering head bearings and the swingarm bearings because they specify a ridiculously high torque figure which is in fact, on the swingarm, the figure for the spindle itself and on the steering stem the torque to be applied between the two locking nuts that prevent the preload on the bearings being lost!

With the swingarm preloading the bearings is really very simple. Firstly you will of ignored the manuals absurd instructions on how to remove the swingarm and will of removed the bevelbox from the end of it so that rather than being a huge, heavy, unwieldy thing that needs two people to juggle, (Even if you did manage to remove it without the back yoke separating from the pinion of the bevelbox! Rolling Eyes ) it is simply an easily managed, lightweight casting. You slip the swingarm over the already installed shaft, (Don't forget the rubber boot!), install the spindle taking care not to knock the right hand inner bearing seal off its register in the frame. Then you install the castellated preload collar onto the spindle and tighten it down while you tug the swingarm gently from side to side. When all the side play has been removed and the swingarm only moves in a rotary manner up and down you can give it a few more degrees of turn, twenty or so degrees at most, to preload the bearings and then tighten the two pinch bolts that prevent the collar from rotating.

That's it! The end! It's that simple! They are a pair of slow moving bearings that only move through a very limited arc. It is important that they have zero axial play to keep the wheel straight in the chassis but preloading them heavily will simply make them brinnel up quicker and need more frequent replacement and if the preload is too great the friction will interfere with the performance of the suspension. Not only that but a high torque can deform the rollers leading to accelerated failure.

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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 06, 2024 1:39 am

Crystal clear Pete.
Thanks for your post.
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motografando
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 06, 2024 8:55 am

Matias wrote:
Hi Moto. Thanks for the advice. Do you know any companies that could do the job here in Europe?

In italy, Oram:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I sent mine to him to do a full rebuild and spring swap.
I suggest also to install hidraulic preload if using the bike with passenger and other loads.

Alternatively is better to spend much money and buy a serious shock with external reservoir and at least triple adjuster and hydraulic preload. It's expensive but is a solution that lasts forever.
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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 06, 2024 11:24 am

Hi Moto,

Thanks for the tips.
I surely would love to get one of those top-spec shocks, but I think I will have to stick to the low-budget alternative for now....
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motografando
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 06, 2024 11:42 am

in that case is better to rebuild stock unit, that is a decent shock, instead of replacing it with poor emulsion-type shock, which are good just for scooters Laughing
The GRiSO is heavy and with limited travel so a good shock is fundamental
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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 06, 2024 8:09 pm

Pete, would it be necessary to go with the bearing sold by Stein Dinse, Gutsibits, etc., or would this alternative from eBay work too? It's half the price...

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 06, 2024 11:26 pm

Unfortunately the bearings Guzzi uses seem to be pretty much unique. It's not that they are a single RS seal type per se, they, as you have found, are as common as dirt. It's the way the seal is mounted that makes them hard to substitute.

As you can see by the pictures of the bearing you suggest, (Which you wouldn't have to buy on-line. Any bearing factor will be able to get them in overnight if they don't already stock them.) the seal for the outer end of the bearing wraps around over the outer face of the bearing itself. Unfortunately this makes it absolutely useless for our purpose as the CARC swingarm bearings the seals are pressed on in such a way as to be level with the outer face of the bearing and this allows them, when installed, to slip between the swingarm. With the ones you picture the extra depth of the rubber of the seals means that the width of the bearing/seal assemblies in the frame becomes too wide to fit comfortably within the swingarm. Quite simply, if you use them the swingarm won't go on!

Look, if you find a cheaper alternative that works? Please! Let us know! I have been looking for an alternative source though since 2005 and I still haven't found one.
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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue May 07, 2024 9:35 am

I had that doubt, and this is why I was raisng the question Pete.
I see what you mean...So, the seal on the outer side of bearing (considering the position they are assembled on the bike) has a lip that goes over the roller cage (Guzzi bearing) or over the outer race (common bearing).
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On the inner side of the assembly there is a seal (that I should by too, right?) that has a wider diameter and is assembled on a recess
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Right?
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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue May 07, 2024 11:20 am

Another thing....
I am waiting for the parts to do a overhaul intervention in the rear suspension (new spring, shock rebuild, new conrod link, swingarm bearings maintenance or eventually replacement).
But I'm doing a 2.000 km trip in 2 weeks...I though I would be able to have this done before, but it seems not...
Now that I understand how this swing arm bearings fittment works I ask:
- Considereing the service time they have already, would it make sense to check if the axial preload from the castelled sleeve needs to be readjusted (which would be finger tight + a couple of degrees more)?
- I case there is already some degradation of the bearing would it make things better or worse?

I believe just by removing the footpeg plate I would have easy access to this castelled sleeve and swing arm pinch bolts. I just don't know if with the bike weight on, shock force, etc., the swingarm axle would move for the adjustment...
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue May 07, 2024 12:14 pm

Just do the ride. The likelyhood of a catastrophic failure is not high.

We have had bikes in with bearings that looked like this...

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And their owners weren't aware of a problem......
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue May 07, 2024 12:17 pm

Oh, yes, the inner seals sit in a register in the frame. The one on the right is easy to dislodge when putting the spindle in so it's best to glue it in with Stag or similar. The inner seals are available for pennies from a bearing factor.
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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Fri May 10, 2024 10:05 pm

One last thing.
The bevelbox conection with the swingarm is sealed with a black sealant.
Are you guys applying sealant again when reassembling? What's the purpose of that sealant? Avoiding water infiltration?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Fri May 10, 2024 10:58 pm

No, it was added at some point around the end of 2009 I think. Earlier bikes didn't have it and while they never leaked there was sometimes enough seepage that there would be discolouration and a slightly darker stain to the paint around the join which caused great pearl-clutching by some of the more delicate flowers in the motorcycling community. The factory's answer was to slather about a litre of silastic onto the join. Sure it cured the discolouration but it made the bevelbox hard to remove and squeezed out in an ugly manner nine times out of ten. I detest it and never reapply anything.
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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Fri May 10, 2024 11:09 pm

Good.
Maybe mine won't have it...
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el capitan
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Fri May 10, 2024 11:59 pm

Matias wrote:
Can you suggest any options you have successfuly used (Hyperpro, etc.)
I ride mostly solo (90 kg), but ocasionally with passenger and bags...

Hi Matias, I was quite successful with the progressive Hyperpro spring on my stock Sachs shock. Once dialled in it works for spirited solo-riding and for riding with a pillion (60-75 kg) without changing anything. But I haven´t tried it out with luggage AND pillion.
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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat May 11, 2024 8:33 am

Hi Capitan,
Glad to hear that because I already ordered the Hyperpro spring 😃...
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el capitan
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat May 11, 2024 10:51 am

Let me know when you are about to install it. I will then write out the exact damping setting as a starting point for you; as our weights match perfectly. You have to compress the new spring anyway so it is helpful to set the preload before spring installation and I went with a bit more than 10 mm. The Hyperpro-recommendation is 10-15 mm.
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Matias
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat May 11, 2024 7:33 pm

Thanks. I believe you mean compressing the spring 10-15 mm in relation to the free-length.
Have you ever checked how much sag you get in this condition?
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el capitan
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PostSubject: Re: Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100   Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100 - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat May 11, 2024 8:44 pm

I never checked sag as it obviously suited the ride-conditions. I don´t stick strictly to numbers, as the result must be OK – having the "right numbers" is no guarantee for that.
For progressive springs mounting them rattle-free turned out to be the best starting point: It still lets the spring work in the softer and reactive first part of its travel, while the spring itself provides enough resistance to higher loads when they apply. So preloading a 160 mm spring with 10 mm is perfect in my view, but your mileage may vary.
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Hyperpro shock for GRiSO 1100
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