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 Tuning noob; order of buisness...

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Crazy88
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PostSubject: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:52 am

Hi all!

I'm loving my 2010 GRiSO (speedo issues aside...) and having had it for about a month I'm starting to get used to it... it's a fair bit different to anything I've ever ridden!

I've seen a lot of brilliant posts about various engine tweaks and fixes but can't put it together... struggling to see the big picture or the issues that have made these tweaks necessary. To put you in the picture; my bike has really good service history, I'm satisfied that it's met the manufacturers service schedule but I don't think it's had anything above or beyond that. So my question is, given your collective experience, what would you do with it?

It hasn't been rollerised yet, i really can't afford to do that until the end of the year but it's definitely on my radar. Any advice on mitigating the potential damage until I can afford the £2000+... It's a weekend toy so not going to be putting massive mileage on it. Yet.

The throttle response/translation to final drive seems really jerky at times; once over approx 4000rpm it feels like the nicest thing I've ever ridden but below that it's whiplash inducing! I'm happy to look at remapping/TPS reset/throttle body balance but I'd like to know what the end result for these tweaks is likely to be. I'm not looking to put an aftermarket can on just yet so just looking to get it running as smoothly as possible.

I used to carry out my own basic maintenance on my older bikes; carb balancing/valve clearances etc so I'd like to learn my way around this one. Any advice to help out a poor, innocent noob would be really appreciated
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:03 am

Step 1. Adjust as much slack as possible out of the "opening" throttle cable. whist idling, turn handlebars to full lock to check RPM DOES NOT increase.

Step 2. Tappets, TB balance and TPS reset. "DONT MESS WITH THE SACRED SCREW"

Step 3. Beetle Map.

Actually, Pre-Step 1. Sell the Mother In-Law and get roller tappet kit.
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guzziownr
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:11 am

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:28 am

First of all you need to rollerise. The sooner the better. Anything over 10-12,000 miles and the tappets will show wear. If you have a FSH you should be able to get a conversion kit. Which one will depend on factors searchable on this site.

As far as tuning and fettling is concerned as long as you have the tools there has never been an easier bike to tune. If you used to balance your carbs? The TB's are far easier. You just need a laptop, cables and Guzzidiag. Just think of it as a different sort of screwdriver, it's that simple.

After that your mapping which controls how the engine performs is fairly ordinary ex-factory. There are lots of options to improve it, a lot of them are counter productive snake oil sold by rampant profiteers though so read and choose carefully, or, you can do it yourself with Tunerpro.

The 1200 8V, no matter what bike it's in, is one of the simplest, most easily maintained bikes currently available. Lots of help and advice is available.

You really should rollerise though, and grease the swingarm and linkage bearings. There be dragons!

Pete
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moby
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:21 am

Pete Roper wrote:
First of all you need to rollerise. The sooner the better. Anything over 10-12,000 miles and the tappets will show wear. If you have a FSH you should be able to get a conversion kit. Which one will depend on factors searchable on this site.

As far as tuning and fettling is concerned as long as you have the tools there has never been an easier bike to tune. If you used to balance your carbs? The TB's are far easier. You just need a laptop, cables and Guzzidiag. Just think of it as a different sort of screwdriver, it's that simple.

After that your mapping which controls how the engine performs is fairly ordinary ex-factory. There are lots of options to improve it, a lot of them are counter productive snake oil sold by rampant profiteers though so read and choose carefully, or, you can do it yourself with Tunerpro.

The 1200 8V, no matter what bike it's in, is one of the simplest, most easily maintained bikes currently available. Lots of help and advice is available.

You really should rollerise though, and grease the swingarm and linkage bearings. There be dragons!

Pete

I can confirm that the advice is good. My experience with tappets vs rollers was at less than 20K kilometres. Beetle map and all advice that has ever come from Mr Roper is spot on. He's a bit like a grumpy Zen Master but call it hard won knowledge. Hope I'm not in the Ghetto dog box!

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Midlifecrisis
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:20 am

I think Rollerising is £1,000+ not £2,000+. Same cost whether you buy the kit and DIY or get a free kit and pay for the labour? Plenty of very good advice here on the DIY approach - depends how good your local dealer is? My impression is that there are only a couple of good ones and a lot of not so good ones in the UK!
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:51 am

How many miles on it ?? Like Pete says anything north of 10k miles and it will already be degrading & there is no mitigation beyond don't ride it and change the flats to rollers asap. Also depending on who you bought it from may get the bits FOC & only have to pay labour of £1,000; or pay £1,000 for bits and do it yourself - I don't think there is a way to privately get bits from MG FOC and do it yourself but that would be the best (and proper) way forward.

My 2009 ate first set of flats by 13,000 miles; second set of flats in next 10,000 miles (BADLY gone - I did it myself and bought roller kit)....if I had my time again would have rollered soon as I bought as I suspect engine although OK is a bit more worn than it should be at young 26k miles.
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Crazy88
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:32 am

Thanks for the advice; I'm totally sold on the need to rollerise, I've seen the pics - the £2000 figure came from the assumption that MG wouldn't come up with the parts, the bike has very, very good service history but if you were being really picky you could find a hole or two in it... I don't know how strict they are.

As much as I don't mind doing the odd bit of maintenance I've never tackled anything like removing the cylinder head; I find it a bit daunting, hence factoring in a mechanic to do it... that being said, if it really is 2k, I might have to have a go anyway. I know some don't require that* I'm not sure if my 2010 will or not, I think it's an A5 engine.

*PS - this rollerisation business is driving me mad... can anyone point signpost me to some info on identifying which kit I'd need, just in case I do have to do it myself. I've had a scan through the posts but not been able to find it, thanks!
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sidrat
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:47 pm

The A5 is the fastest motor :-)
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:08 pm

I'm sure I've written up how to identify which kit you'll need before?

With your bike though it should be easy enough. Take the tank off and find the manufacturing date stamp. If in close proximity to it there is a drill mark in the paint you will need a 'B' kit, if there is no drill mark you'll need the 'C' kit. The changeover point was mid 2010 from memory.

To whit

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Here's a pic of a head with no drill mark.

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And here's one looking down the side of the head. You can see the drill mark adjacent to the Welch plug.

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Ah! Here's the one I was looking for!

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Now for people with later bikes and different models there may be a couple of other differences that will require a different kit but for all models with the 'Long' spark plug tube that seals in the rocker cover with an o-ring that dot is the identifier on Early Grisos you need to be aware of.

Pete
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Crazy88
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:43 pm

Brilliant, thanks Pete!
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:03 pm

Also I dunno where this £1,000-2,000 figure comes from?

You can buy a 'B' kit from Teo Lamers for £530. If you need a 'C' K It's? Just buy a 'B' kit and add the other bits you need separately. I can supply them to you for $200AU or so as I have a tonne of head gaskets which are the expensive bit.

In fact buy everything but the gaskets from Teo and I'll send you a pair for $100 and postage.

You'll be looking at about 3.5 hrs for a 'B' kit, more like 5-5 & 1/2 for a 'C' kit but plenty of people here have 'Rolled their own' rollerisations. Decent tools and care are what is needed and remember, ASK before you screw it up! Not afterwards!

Pete
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Crazy88
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:17 pm

OK, that's reassuring... I've been piecing odd bits of information together and it seems I've missed a few tricks, If I can get the parts for that sort of money I could probably sort it a lot sooner - I'll investigate on my next day off and make a plan to get it done.

Thanks very much!
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:21 pm

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Sez it's for Stelvio but they're all the same.
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Crazy88
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:10 am

Brilliant, given the new info I'm tempted to get it done this month... I'll read around (already started...) for the extra parts needed, I'm really grateful for the advice up to now and don't want to seem lazy... I haven't had a chance to look at the bike yet but it was registered March 2010 so Sod's law would suggest that I'm going to need the 'C' kit (or the equivalent of)

Just one thing though, I noticed that one of the other members had managed to fit the shims without removing the head... seeing as I'd have to buy a spring compressor anyway, would it make sense to get the overhead type and work around the cylinder head by way of an air compressor/rope... or is there some reason why this isn't feasible
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Crazy88
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:20 am

ghezzi wrote:
Step 1. Adjust as much slack as possible out of the "opening" throttle cable. whist idling, turn handlebars to full lock to check RPM DOES NOT increase.

Thanks! The throttle freeplay adjuster was wound right in, I haven't ridden it yet but taken up the most of the slack and checked it at full lock... hopefully a quick win, the rest is to follow...
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:39 pm

Crazy88 wrote:
Brilliant, given the new info I'm tempted to get it done this month... I'll read around (already started...) for the extra parts needed, I'm really grateful for the advice up to now and don't want to seem lazy... I haven't had a chance to look at the bike yet but it was registered March 2010 so Sod's law would suggest that I'm going to need the 'C' kit (or the equivalent of)

Just one thing though, I noticed that one of the other members had managed to fit the shims without removing the head... seeing as I'd have to buy a spring compressor anyway, would it make sense to get the overhead type and work around the cylinder head by way of an air compressor/rope... or is there some reason why this isn't feasible

Even if it is possible, and I don't see how it would be, what's the point? Removing the head after you've got the cambox out is only a few more fasteners away.

As to why I think it would be very difficult if not impossible is because once you have the cambox out the only thing keeping tension on the head gasket are the two 6mm bolts that clamp the rear of the camchain tunnel. It's really not a good idea to leave them tight as when the tension is taken off the four main studs the pressure may warp the casting around the tunnel leading to leaks.

It would be a classic example of one of those things that people try to do that will make a job infinitely more difficult simply to try and save themselves the removal of a handful more fasteners. Just pull the head, it's not hard, really!

Pete
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Crazy88
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:52 am

Rollers all sorted! I took it down to the dealer & they got it through on warrantee/recall/whatever Guzzi call this weirdness which, I think, was probably the best outcome for me... I was prepared to have a go if necessary but am thankful that it wasn't.

The dealer insisted on servicing it at the same time which I guess was an economical use of the workshop time, although I'm probably going to take on the servicing moving forward. Interestingly, I think the bike is running a bit better; nowhere near the same level of popping on engine braking and a bit smoother on the throttle, although still quite harsh below 4000rpm, under 25mph and it feels like it's going to snap the driveshaft!!

Next step is to get guzzidiag up and running & look at a TPS reset & TB balance; just need to let my bank account recover for a bit!
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:15 pm

If the shop serviced it it shouldn't need a TB balance and TPS re-set, it's a vital part of the service. scratch
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Steak
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:19 pm

You're well on your way to sorted bliss, the rest is pablum really.

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2012 MOTO GUZZI GRiSO 1200SE

2013 MOTO GUZZI STELVIO 1200NTX - Orange Blossom Special
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Crazy88
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:07 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
If the shop serviced it it shouldn't need a TB balance and TPS re-set, it's a vital part of the service. scratch

Excellent; that could account for the improvement that I've seen, I didn't know that they were standard servicing points. I guess that next on the list is trying an aftermarket fuelling map - I'm enjoying the bike but I need to make it a bit more manageable around town, plus the engine braking/transmission of power seems brutal low down, I'm genuinely worried about it causing damage!
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:27 pm

You need one of Mark's maps to sort out sub 4000 rpm jerkiness and generally make it a dream to ride everywhere (probably the single biggest and only thing you need to do)....engine braking & transmission has never been issue for me so likely just depends what you rode before and getting used to change...enjoy !
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sidrat
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:51 am

Beetle is your next stop cheers
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Crazy88
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:14 am

I can't wait! But I do need to do some mundane things like pay my rent first!

I take it that these are the maps to have...

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klaas123
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning noob; order of buisness...    Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:19 am

Here are all steps you need to follow:

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