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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed May 15, 2019 8:59 pm

See my PM. I'm getting a bit worried about your engine.

Oh, Marks engine temperature sender was located to that point because on our engine it serves no purpose and gets hot reasonably quickly.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed May 15, 2019 9:13 pm


ETS = Engine Temperature Sensor

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed May 15, 2019 9:39 pm

Look, this is the PM I just sent our German friend. It's not really private but if others are thinking of going down the 1400 route they need to know it's NOT simple and easy.

The old 2 valvers used, more or less, to be like construction kits for big boys with a plethora of parts interchangeability. This simply isn't the case with the 1200/1400 platform. There are a host of differences. Some of them requiring machine work and part substitution to render the platform workable.

Even after you've overcome them you are left chasing the crankcase pressurisation and oil expulsion problem.

Gakk!

***********************************************

I fear you may have a real problem with the system as it is plumbed into your bike.

Were the 1200 cylinder heads modified in any way? Because if not there are two likely courses of events, (Although I'm going to have to go and check my notes and records before I can be certain.). First is that the oil from the cooling circuit will in fact be returning through those pipes to the sump but will be completely bypassing the cooling circuit in the 1200 head or, more worryingly, the cooling circuit is completely blocked off by the differences between the 1200 and 1400 head castings and cooling gallery location in which case the cooling oil will ALL be being dumped directly back into the timing chest via the oil pressure relief valve. Now if that is the case one has to hope that the OPRV has significant over-capacity because if there is any serious restriction to the flow it will mean that the loadings on not only the oil pump gear, (Which is made of some form of plastic and isn't super strong.) and the oil pump shaft are going to be far higher than they were designed for. The risk of tearing teeth off that gear, especially when the engine is cold, is very real in that situation.

There is also the fact that if that is happening it's going to rob significant power from the motor as well as denying the cooling that the exhaust valves and seats supposedly require, (And I'm not willing to bet any engine I build on the necessity of such cooling or not. The system was designed for a purpose. Insufficient cooling could well lead to valves loosing heads or a valve seat dropping out. Either of those situations is ugly, not to mention costly!

Your bloke may well of done some clever machine work to get the system to work, (Although unless he can drill at a right angle I'm not sure how?) but unless the actual mating faces of head or barrel have been modified I can't see how that system works???

************************************
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2highlander
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Thu May 16, 2019 12:16 pm

Easy said Pete. If I had a 1400 experienced guru like You near me You wouldn't get me out of Your garage again.

Has Mark's bike settled now and the oil consumption issue been solved?

Btw, since the mod, the bike has got 9.000 km on the clock, at a total of 30.000. Since now there weren't any issues at all - except rollerization at 17.600 and oil consumption since the mod. The engine seems to function somehow...and not really bad, indeed.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Thu May 16, 2019 3:33 pm


2highlander wrote:

Has Mark's bike settled now and the oil consumption issue been solved?


The answer is "don't know"..yet.

Since the oil loss incident, I've not really ridden enough to have any meaningful data. New injectors meant a complete remap, then I crashed, now the blow-by issue. I think the oil expulsion needs to be resolved before we can know. When I recently pulled the cover on the airbox:


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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Thu May 16, 2019 4:57 pm

I know high performance car engines are not relevant here but my neighbour Col, is a big fan of both dry sump and vacuum pump conversions. Both give net gains in power/torque but the real benefits in reliability and longevity are immeasurable.

Hoping for a simpler easier solution.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Thu May 16, 2019 5:10 pm


A vacuum pump would be wonderful. However, the amount of work involved in fitting one to a GRiSO doesn't bear thinking about.



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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Thu May 16, 2019 9:08 pm


GRiSO condenser box. Pete donated one for forensic examination. I was planning on cutting it open, but using a borescope revealed what I suspected. There is nothing inside it. Not even a flapper or shelf. Total volume is 500ml. Michael thought he could see a mesh screen on the airbox port, but it turned out to be a greebly.


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Greebly:


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Pete had an idea about a second catch can mounted under the left wing. We could connect it to the stock one via the unused port (with the condom on). I was thinking a proper horizontal mounted can with a separator element, about 400ml might do the job. Block the airbox port from the original box, and leave the drain attached. Have the airbox attached to the second can, a second drain into the sump via a Y-piece or somesuch.


Thoughts?




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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Thu May 16, 2019 9:12 pm

With a non return valve in the drain to sump maybe?
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2highlander
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri May 17, 2019 12:19 am

The collector of my LeMans has a flapper vent inside and in the drain hose there is a ball valve. Therefore, a return valve should'nt be the worst idea.

Another idea is why not simply insert a second can in the cooler-to-airbox hose?

Mark, the insights of Your airbox shows me Your oil consumption issue will remain at your bike's actual state, I'm pretty sure. Keep watching Your dipstick!
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri May 17, 2019 3:07 am

If your Le Mans is a Tonti it shouldn't have both. Having both can lead to gross over-pressurisation as the valves work against each other. The result will be a blown rear mainseal.

Either remove the ball valve or disable the flapper. My suggestion would be the latter.

Sorry? Cooler to airbox hose?

Dipstick is watched religiously.
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2highlander
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri May 17, 2019 3:53 am

With cooler I mean the collector, also named can here. Ball valve was removed at rebirth of my Tonti LM1, it had both when I bought it, wondering why it was spitting out oil. Boah, it was in a state that others would have thrown away the bike as far as possible. But now it's all bene, I love it.....

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But now back again to GRiSO....
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri May 17, 2019 1:45 pm

Universal budget oil catcher fitted - I'm just running it for couple hundred miles to see how much oil is actually flowing into the airbox (regular 1200 with high oil cons & very oily airbox).....I'm assuming most droplets will be captured as I can't be arsed even approximating flows and aerosol droplet characteristics to work it out

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2highlander
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri May 17, 2019 2:32 pm

Hope You closed the spigot of the airbox ...
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Stubbie
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun May 19, 2019 12:02 am

Catch can
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue May 21, 2019 12:27 am

Would one of these work for you? "Krank Vent Plus"
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue May 21, 2019 3:45 am


The P2M looks to be a good size, but is designed to mount vertically. Mounting it so that it works and doesn't look like an afterthought could be a challenge. The oil level tube is superfluous, as we want to return recovered oil to the sump.

That Krank Vent Plus is just an extremely overpriced PCV valve. The Sifton Case Breather is the same at 1/3 the price. I have considered adding a Sifton to each valve cover breather line.


I'm currently looking at mounting a small modified can under the left wing.



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2highlander
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:42 am

Now, what has happened meanwhile?

For test purposes, I screwed up CO and changed spark plugs to the specified first choice NGK iridium ones. They now show a little bit darker brown than they should, but: oil consumption has fallen  from 1 to about 0.5 ltr. per 1000 km.

Next step.

Brought the bike to Thomas Stacheter who rollerized it 2017. I can trust him blind.

My GRiSO will get a decent, cylinder selective dyno mapping. For this purpose, a flange for a lambda probe will be weldered to each exhaust line.

From RG who did the 1400 conversion, I got an information that lamda should be 0.7 at 6.500 revs and higher, injection time should be around 13.500 ms all due to internal cooling. Having no experience with injection times, I can't say if that's bullshit or not. Thomas rolled his eyes, but we will also dyno this.

We will also have a close look at these mysterious hoses and locate exactly where they are connected to. As said, they should return  the oil  from the top back to the sump, we will see.

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:32 am


Thomas was right to roll his eyes. I think I like him.

Lambda of 0.7? FFS, why? Do you own shares in an oil company? 0.7 is so stupid rich you'll be able to hear the fuel gurgling out of the tank. Target lambda should be 0.85 - 0.89.

So Stefan cools his 1400's with fuel? What a knob. Rolling Eyes





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2highlander
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:43 am

Beetle, just to clarify,

RG is NOT Roland Daes, but Radical Guzzi. Roland always does great work, mostly in a forensic way. He also belongs to the very rare ones here in Germany whom You can trust blind. But to get his time to do the bike is something else ... *grzgrmbl

When the bike is done I can send the map if You like. The fundamental setup will probably be with BMC air filter and removed lid. Thomas said it could, but not must make sense to get out most of power.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:14 am


D'oh!

You are of course, correct. I've fixed it.


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pauldaytona
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:59 pm

Or just like the old days, an extra sump extension.? Brings volume where you need it.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:26 pm

I'd considered it but was getting worried about ground clearance. Perhaps with the 1400 sump?

Pete
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pauldaytona
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:11 pm

I had for some time exhaust pipes 50mm running under the daytona sump. Only problem is when you go down from the sideboard on the road.

Other idea just to test, make a pipe to the oil fill hole. And put a bottle from 1 litre on the end. So you can see if a bigger volume solves it.

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:25 pm

I hate it when you post up pics of that thing Paul. It makes me all moist.Very Happy

I'm about to pull the 1400 out of my Stelvio and slip the old 1200 donk back in. The 1400 case just presents too many problems with timing accuracy. Once it's out I'll pull the sump off it and start investigating getting a sump extension made and designing a baffle plate for the engine. A bit more volume and a barrier to prevent windage will probably fix the problem.

I'll probably get several made up and I might copyright the design too in the hope that it can't be stolen by those pricks at Gutsibits or their ilk.

Pete
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