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 1400 project update.

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pauldaytona
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:40 am

Pete, where is the timing from the 1400 engine different?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:08 am

It uses a different phase sensor and phonic wheel. We've lashed up an early phase sensor and using the 1200 phonic wheel we can get it to run but obviously it's position isn't accurate. Yes I'm sure Mark could build it a wonderful map that would work but it would only work for this set-up and if we had to change the phase sensor all the hard work would be thrown to the shithouse.

I'm sure we could find a solution but to my mind it's easier to just build everything into a 1200 crankcase!

Pete
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:38 pm


Yesterday & today I indulged in Project Blow-by. I added an extra catch can, tastefully hidden under the left wing.

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This can is only 100cc, but I'm hoping it will keep oil out of airbox. It arrived as an empty cylinder with a 5/16 spigot on one end, and a 1.5mm breather hole near the screw-off end.

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I enlarged the breather hole and tapped it to take a 5/16 spigot, and added another hole at the opposite end, and tapped it accept a 5/16 spigot.


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I used a copper scourer pad for the transfer medium to separate the oil from the crankcase gas. I unrolled it, cut approximately 25% off an inserted it into the new can.


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I removed the existing hose to the airbox, and installed a new hose from the stock breather box to the "input" of the new can. I then disconnected the sump return line, and drained the oil. I made a new return line with a check valve inline. I connected it the drains on both the breather box and catch can via a t-junction.


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I added fresh oil and fired it up. No leaks observed. I'll take it for a test run tomorrow.


You can only see the drain line.


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bahamazoo
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:00 am

Shocked
Neutral
Basketball
Thumbs Up
scratch
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2highlander
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:03 am

Hi folks,



it took some time, but now there are great news on my 1400 ccm project.

In June, I had a complete checkup of my bike with Thomas Stacheter, together with the 30.000 km inspection.

For a cylinder selective mapping, we installed a bore for seperate probes to each exhaust line. Result of a first dyno run was the right cylinder running much too lean. As a consequence, engine was selectively mapped with lambda 0,9 and probe switched off.

Concerning the oil consumption issue, we did a oil change and replaced the Agip Eni 10W60 with motul 10W60. With this oil he has the best experiences Thomas said.

Ok, I had enough time for testing on my 1 week-2.300km-italian-tour to Lago Maggiore and Lago di Como/Mandello, the home of all Guzzis. Took 2 extra cans of ENI with me, You never know...

What should I say, oil consumption lowered from approx. 1 ltr./1000 km to 0,5 ltr./2300 km! I`m still speechless and have no explanation for this, because I also struggled with temperatures up to 39C and 105% air humidity on my trip, causing oil temperature going up to 140C in urban traffic at my dipstick. A real challenge for an air cooled engine and last but not least for the pilot. Even the Italians said "You don`t need a lake, You can swim in the air!". This was exactly what it felt like.

But I also had some issues with hickups after cold start in the morning and warm start after a small pause on the mountain passes. Immediately after starting, the engine only could be kept alive by playing with the throttle for one or two times. Also, the transition from pushing mode to pulling the cable could have been smoother and the bike smelled with fuel sometimes.

Ok, back to Thomas when being at home again. The fuel smelling issue was adressed as a leak at the fuel pump. The electric wires are routed through a piece of rubber where a drop of fuel has passed by sometimes. Not weird, but leaky. We fixed this by letting some resine settle in: leak stopped, and this was also an occassion to apply a new fuel filter.

We also wanted to refine the map, but on changes the engine didn`t react as expected, especially when idling. Boy, You should have seen the crap in the throttlebodies`engine side and in the intake galleries! As a consequence, all was cleaned thoroughly. Done and on the correction of the map went. The engine is now running with lambda 0,87 up to approx 3500 rpms and above with 0,9. WTF, what a difference, this is how the engine should run!




Beetle, did You have success with Your second catch can? Should Your engine still burn oil like hell, try Motul 10W60 (the bleeding red one) before fiddling around with extra cans and clean Your throttlebodies before continuing with anything else. If You like, I can sent You my religiously edited map as a base for Your own 1400.

Next week, I will again have time to test on a 2 week tour to Bozen, the mountain passes around and then down to the southern end of Lago di Garda. But after a first impression on the 130 km ride home from Thomas, I`m pretty sure that the bike is perfect now.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:50 pm


1. Throttle bodies cleaned earlier this year.
2. I use Penrite 10W-60, and am not about to change.
3. I have a perfectly magnificent map, tweaked to within a poofteenth of my sanity cracking.

It's too early to tell how the second catch can is working. I've only done about 200km since installing it.



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2highlander
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:48 pm

I can only say that my oil consumption issue seems to be gone with the said oil. If so really after further 2500km, this clearly is my preferred solution before experimenting with other things.

I won't advice You to do something You might not be convinced of, so please understand this as a perhaps useful hint to solve Your problem. Let me report again after my 2 week trip starting tomorrow morning.
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guzzikai
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:41 am

Hi I'm new to this forum
but I have worked with MOTO GUZZI for 30 years
just for info
i have a GRiSO 1400 made by radical guzzi the first one made
I don't have the problems you're talking about
with high oil consumption
or that the air filter box is filled with oil
but I have a high consumption of gasoline about 130 km at 10l
but it can also be the way I drive
B R G
Renè
Denmark
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jagger
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:58 am

Pete hose #14 , why not just route it to atmosphere ? That would eliminate any pumping from the airbox.I did this on my 99 R1100S ,and oil consumption went to almost nothing. Old school.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:20 am

If by hose 14 you mean the vapour feed to the airbox I wouldn't run it to atmosphere because a.) It would end up blurting any excess oil out and god knows where it would end up and b.) It would pump more pollutants out into the atmosphere rather than burning them into something less damaging.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Fri May 29, 2020 4:26 pm


A bit more plumbing added to (hopefully) help resolve the blow-by issue.


I added a pipe from the sump to the secondary catch can. I used a 30mm adapter with a 8mm barb fitting attached. This necessitated in the manufacture of new dipstick.


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With the adapter attached and the new dipstick in, there was a lot of air being pumped out of the hose fitting. Talk about ditch pumps...



Hose mounted and feeding into the catch can. Weather permitting, I'll take it for a test run tomorrow.


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bahamazoo
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Sat May 30, 2020 12:01 am

wot... no oetiker clamp??

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Sat May 30, 2020 11:04 am


One must make do.










And I don't have an Oetiker tool. Or any clamps.

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Sat May 30, 2020 11:09 am

Next time you're over here we can do it properly. Now I have an account with Wurth I've bought a load of new Oetiker clamps an can order as many as anybody wants. The pliers aren't that expensive, $28 or so I think. I'll check on Tuesday, (Monday being a public holiday in Canberra.)
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bahamazoo
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Sat May 30, 2020 11:27 am

see, less than a drunken helm Sire....

The MG 1400 Wheezer deserves no less!


🤔 maybe that 'extra' air could be harnessed into a reservoir and redirected to a self lubricating air start!!

the would negate startus interruptus, and how cool would that startup sound be outside the cafe'!!! Razz Razz Razz
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Sat May 30, 2020 6:35 pm


Hmm.


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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Sat May 30, 2020 7:03 pm

What sort of washer are you using on the crankcase fitting? Try a Dowty seal. I'll grab a few if you give me the ID you need. Actually don't bother, I can work that out because I have one too Laughing
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Sat May 30, 2020 7:10 pm


Yeah, it's just an aluminium crush washer. A Dowty would be better.




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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:23 pm


V2. Utilising the chamfer on the fill port and corresponding o-ring from the factory dipstick. The port adapter is now using an adapter with dowty seal and -6 AN hose end. No leaks in stationary idle test. I’ll take it for a blatt and see what happens.


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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:43 pm


Post blatt inspection revealed no leaks. No evidence of leaks the next day.

cheers


Now. Assuming VE is 90% at 4000 RPM (conservatively), and blow-by rate is 0.5% (conservative estimate for run-in engine), actual blow by (V) will be:


V = (D x S x VE x B)/2

Where
D = displacement in litres
S = Engine speed in RPM
VE = Volumetric Efficienvy
B = Blow-by rate

So at, cruise, say 4000 RPM

V = (1.380 X 4000 x 0.9 x 0.005)/2
V= 12.42 litres per minute.


Is 600cc of blow-by tank capacity enough?


¯\_(ツ)_/¯



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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:48 pm

No idea but I've just implemented similar on my V50 and did similar thinking.........

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600 cc should be fine given old 2L cars I've had used smaller than that ....probably capacity is less important than the layout of internals to allow disentrainment of oil mist - & the test is whether oil appears in the airbox OR goes to the sump

At high flow rates & without sharp direction changes simple wire wool likely won't disentrain much. On other hand some clever 'baffling' solution (sic) uses the high flow rate to force oil mist out around a sharp plate/flow direction bend.  I aimed to have inlet flowing directly onto internal wall to trap out oil mist & outlet flow at 90 degrees & from centre away from the walls...I'm still assessing how well it works.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:01 pm

paulbrice wrote:


At high flow rates & without sharp direction changes simple wire wool likely won't disentrain much.


I was surprised how "dry" the volume above the copper wool in the secondary catch can was. The return line to the sump had residual oil in it. I found out when it drained out after I disconnected it to add the line in from the sump. Separation is occurring.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯




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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:07 pm

If it's working ..... Smile

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:17 pm


Well...time will tell. I'm yet to check the airbox.


Razz



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bahamazoo
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PostSubject: Re: 1400 project update.   1400 project update. - Page 4 Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:45 pm

slightly different scenario, but when I was making' mayo, I made this up to catch the muck before it got to the airbox....

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tube passed thru the cap and thru a 'carbon' filter gauze (from my fishtank filter) into the bottle.
air then escaped via a hole in the cap - after being 'filtered' by the carbon gauze.... kinda  Rolling Eyes

so volume shouldn't be an issue, as long as the catch can can vent freely.

actually stopped this happening...

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What a Face
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