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 The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....

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Edown101-23
Carlotto
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Edown101-23


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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:37 pm

I am running the Mivv titanium and carbon on my 2015. I was wanting to run all titanium, and was told that the Arrow titanium header & mid would work with the Mivv, by the Italian seller. My pause is, there is no way for me to be certain on my own, and I am certain that along with opening up the intake there will need to be a reflash. That is currently what I am researching. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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sideshowbob
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:47 pm

Problem with the titanium mid is it does away with the pretzel and will kill your torque. If that is not correct, Mark, Pete, let us know.
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Edown101-23
Carlotto
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Edown101-23


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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:00 pm

sideshowbob wrote:
Problem with the titanium mid is it does away with the pretzel and will kill your torque. If that is not correct, Mark, Pete, let us know.

The problem is, the only other titanium header/mid combo (listed in the thread) doesn't appear to be a viable option anymore. The Arrow is the only other one that I have found. And that was before seeing this thread.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:36 pm

'Opening up' the 'Intake', by which I assume you mean fitting some sort of rock strainer like a K&N filter will achieve absolutely nothing apart from accelerated engine wear and is completely unnecessary.

For best overall performance running a stock air filter in the airbox with the snorkel removed and keeping the 'Pretzel' mid pipe and using a dB killer will render the best results and the longer the exhaust the better the bottom end and midrange will be when coupled with a correctly built map.

Running no dB killer may give you a minute, as in barely detectable, increase in top end but will sacrifice bottom end and midrange, (As well as sending you deaf and pissing off your neighbours.). Titanium headers do have a small performance advantage as their rapid heat dissipation helps slow down the exiting charge without impeding it leading to less charge transition and better cylinder fill.

There is a reason both Mark and my bikes run Ti pipes and the Mistral Hi-Pipe with dB killer installed although his being a 1400 compared to my 1200 and him being comparatively lithe while I resemble an oblate spheroid means that in any given situation his bike will romp away from mine as if it's standing still.

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:11 pm


I run the Arrow Ti mid pipe. On the 1200, I had to use some radical ignition advance to claw back some of the torque lost with the pretzel. I use the same ignition map in the 1400, but extra cubes added more than enough torque for me. I investigated getting a custom pretzel replica in Ti, but the cost was horrific.

As Pete says, the K&N and its ilk are little more than rock strainers. The ECU has no way to compensate for the increase in air flow. I strongly recommend the only mod you do to the air box is delete the snorkel.

I have made a map for a full Arrow system, which should work with your pipe, with maybe minor tweaking, provided you leave the dB killer in.


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Edown101-23
Carlotto
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Edown101-23


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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:27 pm

beetle wrote:

I run the Arrow Ti mid pipe. On the 1200, I had to use some radical ignition advance to claw back some of the torque lost with the pretzel. I use the same ignition map in the 1400, but extra cubes added more than enough torque for me. I investigated getting a custom pretzel replica in Ti, but the cost was horrific.

As Pete says, the K&N and its ilk are little more than rock strainers. The ECU has no way to compensate for the increase in air flow. I strongly recommend the only mod you do to the air box is delete the snorkel.

I have made a map for a full Arrow system, which should work with your pipe, with maybe minor tweaking, provided you leave the dB killer in.





The weird thing is, the exhaust isn't loud at all without the db killer. I believe I only measured 85 db with it out & 80 at idle. Its just throaty without. I'll have to check again to be sure. It just makes me wonder why Arrow engineered the mid pipe without the u-bend if it is so detrimental?? Is it made for a big bore kit? Is it better to keep the stock mid pipe? That seems so counterproductive... I'm not trying to second guess the experts. It just seems strange compared to many other bikes I've had.


Last edited by Edown101-23 on Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Edown101-23
Carlotto
Carlotto
Edown101-23


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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:38 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
'Opening up' the 'Intake', by which I assume you mean fitting some sort of rock strainer like a K&N filter will achieve absolutely nothing apart from accelerated engine wear and is completely unnecessary.

For best overall performance running a stock air filter in the airbox with the snorkel removed and keeping the 'Pretzel' mid pipe and using a dB killer will render the best results and the longer the exhaust the better the bottom end and midrange will be when coupled with a correctly built map.

Running no dB killer may give you a minute, as in barely detectable, increase in top end but will sacrifice bottom end and midrange, (As well as sending you deaf and pissing off your neighbours.). Titanium headers do have a small performance advantage as their rapid heat dissipation helps slow down the exiting charge without impeding it leading to less charge transition and better cylinder fill.

There is a reason both Mark and my bikes run Ti pipes and the Mistral Hi-Pipe with dB killer installed although his being a 1400 compared to my 1200 and him being comparatively lithe while I resemble an oblate spheroid means that in any given situation his bike will romp away from mine as if it's standing still.

As far as "opening up the intake," I was looking at the following:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.][You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:06 pm

Unnecessary, useless junk. Tried something similar 12 years ago. It delivered no benefit.

If a 125 hp Tuono can breathe through a smaller filter element than the stock GRiSO/Stelvio filter what benefit can there be to just removing the lid of the airbox.

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Edown101-23
Carlotto
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Edown101-23


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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:26 pm

beetle wrote:

I run the Arrow Ti mid pipe. On the 1200, I had to use some radical ignition advance to claw back some of the torque lost with the pretzel. I use the same ignition map in the 1400, but extra cubes added more than enough torque for me. I investigated getting a custom pretzel replica in Ti, but the cost was horrific.

As Pete says, the K&N and its ilk are little more than rock strainers. The ECU has no way to compensate for the increase in air flow. I strongly recommend the only mod you do to the air box is delete the snorkel.

I have made a map for a full Arrow system, which should work with your pipe, with maybe minor tweaking, provided you leave the dB killer in.



Is there a thread showing what I would need as far as hardware for the reflash? This may be a stupid question, but some of this seems counterintuitive. Is there an advantage to running the ti headers and keeping a stock midpipe? Is that header/mid combo for a big bore kit or something?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:29 pm


Quote :
The weird thing is, the exhaust isn't loud at all without the db killer. I believe I only measured 85 db with it out & 80 at idle. Its just throaty without. I'll have to check again to be sure. It just makes me wonder why Arrow engineered the mid pipe without the u-bend if it is so detrimental?? Is it made for a big bore kit? Is it better to keep the stock mid pipe? That seems so counterproductive... I'm not trying to second guess the experts. It just seems strange compared to many other bikes I've had.



The reason why the pretzel was deleted is almost certainly that the Arrow wonks thought the only reason it was there was to give somewhere to hide the lambda sensor. They probably did no experimentation and just used the same principles that most people think will work whereas if you actually do some real research and experimentation you will soon find out what works and what doesn't. The Guzzi 8V motor is a queer mixture of old and new. Using traditional tuning principles on it won't work, although many, (Usually those trying to sell you expensive snake oil.) will tell you otherwise. Likewise using modern principles that will work well on a radically cammed downdraught head motor will be found wanting on the 8V.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:31 pm

Edown101-23 wrote:
beetle wrote:

I run the Arrow Ti mid pipe. On the 1200, I had to use some radical ignition advance to claw back some of the torque lost with the pretzel. I use the same ignition map in the 1400, but extra cubes added more than enough torque for me. I investigated getting a custom pretzel replica in Ti, but the cost was horrific.

As Pete says, the K&N and its ilk are little more than rock strainers. The ECU has no way to compensate for the increase in air flow. I strongly recommend the only mod you do to the air box is delete the snorkel.

I have made a map for a full Arrow system, which should work with your pipe, with maybe minor tweaking, provided you leave the dB killer in.



Is there a thread showing what I would need as far as hardware for the reflash? This may be a stupid question, but some of this seems counterintuitive. Is there an advantage to running the ti headers and keeping a stock midpipe? Is that header/mid combo for a big bore kit or something?

The Guzzidiag thread in the technical section by Mark, (Beetle.) tells you all you need to know.

Make sure you understand how to tune and balance the throttlebodies before you play about with them or you'll open yourself up to a world of pain.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:37 pm

You'll need to blow it up but here's a pic of my shitbox with Arrow headers and stock pretzel. If you can look closely you'll see there is no lambda probe as I'm running an open loop map. I just plugged the hole.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:06 pm

Quote :
The weird thing is, the exhaust isn't loud at all without the db killer. I believe I only measured 85 db with it out & 80 at idle. Its just throaty without. I'll have to check again to be sure. It just makes me wonder why Arrow engineered the mid pipe without the u-bend if it is so detrimental?? Is it made for a big bore kit? Is it better to keep the stock mid pipe? That seems so counterproductive... I'm not trying to second guess the experts. It just seems strange compared to many other bikes I've had.


I'm not going to as harsh on Arrow as Pete was. At least they left a right angle bend, plus another maybe 120 degree bend. Unlike the twats at Agostini. There's is straight.

It's not a complete waste of time, otherwise I wouldn't have left it in. The proviso, is that one must compensate elsewhere, and that's where the Mistral Hi-Pipe comes in. I personally wouldn't use the Arrow midpipe without the Mistral. Simples.


Here's mine in situ.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]



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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:42 am

Paint on the garage ceiling's still looking good......

(Running and ducking Razz )
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alanlemansiv
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:42 am

Mmm can you apply the same principles to a 1200 sport2v
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:34 am

Well yes and no. A labyrinth air filter is always a bad idea but the old 2V engine will, because it is a design from a different age, respond to old-style hot-rodding better than the 8V mill. Having said that the final iteration of the pushrod motor had been taken about as far as it could be whilst maintaining reasonable engine life. Sure, you can put a more radical cam in it but you'll be pulling the heads frequently to re-guide them and valve life will be compromised, you'll need a custom map and maybe different injectors and you'll be trading off bottom end and midrange for top end gains that, once again, will be minimal.

The simple fact of the matter is you aren't going to be building a Hayabusa beater out of any Guzzi. If you're really determined to chase performance it's a far better idea to start with something with a lot of tuning potential rather than something that is approaching its limits.
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Edown101-23
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:56 am

Pete Roper wrote:
Well yes and no. A labyrinth air filter is always a bad idea but the old 2V engine will, because it is a design from a different age, respond to old-style hot-rodding better than the 8V mill. Having said that the final iteration of the pushrod motor had been taken about as far as it could be whilst maintaining reasonable engine life. Sure, you can put a more radical cam in it but you'll be pulling the heads frequently to re-guide them and valve life will be compromised, you'll need a custom map and maybe different injectors and you'll be trading off bottom end and midrange for top end gains that, once again, will be minimal.

The simple fact of the matter is you aren't going to be building a Hayabusa beater out of any Guzzi. If you're really determined to chase performance it's a far better idea to start with something with a lot of tuning potential rather than something that is approaching its limits.

I would like to have a little more than the flywheel hp/tq at the wheel. And a fuel gauge lol!😅
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:25 pm

Alan, A few of us have 1200 Sports with the 2V motor (that is two valve per side).Mark has been very patient with us for a few (nay quite a few) years and we have collectively mapped them to give as much as can be had without putting them into the detonator class.

To be fair though, the 2V can, as Pete says, be modded more in the olds kool way. Those of us here have not done that - just got the best out of what is already there. Mine pulls cleanly from 2,000 in top gear - presumably all the way to blurp blurp land. I have not done that on mine in top - I chicken out at a little over 200 - really don't want to walk for the next year! I can reach blurp blurp VERY easily in the bottom four gears though. Blurp blurp happens at 8,400 rpm! I do have an after-market muffler, Pat has a pair of Chinesium mufflers, a mate in Cantberra has a Termi, can't remember what the others have but none of the standard and a little more open that the original z-fold anchor.

My pretzel is still in, original filter still in, snorkel removed. Returns circa 4.6 l/100 km even when fully laden and ridden in a spirited manner.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:23 pm

Edown101-23 wrote:
Pete Roper wrote:
Well yes and no. A labyrinth air filter is always a bad idea but the old 2V engine will, because it is a design from a different age, respond to old-style hot-rodding better than the 8V mill. Having said that the final iteration of the pushrod motor had been taken about as far as it could be whilst maintaining reasonable engine life. Sure, you can put a more radical cam in it but you'll be pulling the heads frequently to re-guide them and valve life will be compromised, you'll need a custom map and maybe different injectors and you'll be trading off bottom end and midrange for top end gains that, once again, will be minimal.

The simple fact of the matter is you aren't going to be building a Hayabusa beater out of any Guzzi. If you're really determined to chase performance it's a far better idea to start with something with a lot of tuning potential rather than something that is approaching its limits.

I would like to have a little more than the flywheel hp/tq at the wheel. And a fuel gauge lol!😅

I recently explained to another new owner that what you will be able to get from the Guzzi 8V is *About* 100 rear wheel horsepower. That's basically it. Yes, you can, if you do a lot of screwing around and spend a LOT of money get a few more at the top end but in doing so you will sacrifice midrange and bottom end.

If you do choose to go down the fruitless HP-chasing trail there are any number of people out there who will sell you junk that doesn't work and charge you handsomely for the privilege! If you're lucky they'll even provide you with a 'Dyno Chart' that you can show to other people to 'Prove' how fantastic their emptying your wallet has been!

We don't do that. We only deal with the possible and achievable and I have been working with the 8V and experimenting with it for twelve years and the Guzzi marque for forty. If you follow the advice offered here you will have a machine that is a joy to ride. It will be reliable, smooth and deliver seamless performance from 2,000 rpm to when it goes Blurp. It will also cost you next to nothing leaving you all the money you've saved by not buying into the high HP bullshit trap to spend on stuff that will seriously improve your enjoyment like better suspension and brakes.

There is no charge for this information and I have nothing to sell you. See if the same is true from the 'Big Talkers'

lcjohnny, Doc., Utesch, melonman, Edown101-23, Bill Dee and steveb like this post

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Edown101-23
Carlotto
Carlotto
Edown101-23


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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:31 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Edown101-23 wrote:
Pete Roper wrote:
Well yes and no. A labyrinth air filter is always a bad idea but the old 2V engine will, because it is a design from a different age, respond to old-style hot-rodding better than the 8V mill. Having said that the final iteration of the pushrod motor had been taken about as far as it could be whilst maintaining reasonable engine life. Sure, you can put a more radical cam in it but you'll be pulling the heads frequently to re-guide them and valve life will be compromised, you'll need a custom map and maybe different injectors and you'll be trading off bottom end and midrange for top end gains that, once again, will be minimal.

The simple fact of the matter is you aren't going to be building a Hayabusa beater out of any Guzzi. If you're really determined to chase performance it's a far better idea to start with something with a lot of tuning potential rather than something that is approaching its limits.

I would like to have a little more than the flywheel hp/tq at the wheel. And a fuel gauge lol!😅

I recently explained to another new owner that what you will be able to get from the Guzzi 8V is *About* 100 rear wheel horsepower. That's basically it. Yes, you can, if you do a lot of screwing around and spend a LOT of money get a few more at the top end but in doing so you will sacrifice midrange and bottom end.

If you do choose to go down the fruitless HP-chasing trail there are any number of people out there who will sell you junk that doesn't work and charge you handsomely for the privilege! If you're lucky they'll even provide you with a 'Dyno Chart' that you can show to other people to 'Prove' how fantastic their emptying your wallet has been!

We don't do that. We only deal with the possible and achievable and I have been working with the 8V and experimenting with it for twelve years and the Guzzi marque for forty. If you follow the advice offered here you will have a machine that is a joy to ride. It will be reliable, smooth and deliver seamless performance from 2,000 rpm to when it goes Blurp. It will also cost you next to nothing leaving you all the money you've saved by not buying into the high HP bullshit trap to spend on stuff that will seriously improve your enjoyment like better suspension and brakes.

There is no charge for this information and I have nothing to sell you. See if the same is true from the 'Big Talkers'

Much appreciated! I truly am thankful for the knowledge and resources provided.
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rick pope
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:00 pm

Edown, The advice given above is spot-on. If you want fast, buy a fast bike. I'll gladly sell you my CBR-XX for far less than it would take to make the Grisso fast. And it runs on regular gas and is dependable. But alas, it remains parked and I ride the GRiSO.......
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:15 pm

rick pope wrote:
Edown,  The advice given above is spot-on. If you want fast, buy a fast bike.  I'll gladly sell you my CBR-XX for far less than it would take to make the Grisso fast.  And it runs on regular gas and is dependable.  But alas, it remains parked and I ride the GRiSO.......

And how 'Fast' do you want to go? If you can hang on a GRiSO 1200 will probably sit at 180-200kph indicated for hour after hour! How long you'd stay out of gaol and whether you'd have a neck like a giraffe after ten minutes are probably more pertinent questions!

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Edown101-23
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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:58 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
rick pope wrote:
Edown,  The advice given above is spot-on. If you want fast, buy a fast bike.  I'll gladly sell you my CBR-XX for far less than it would take to make the Grisso fast.  And it runs on regular gas and is dependable.  But alas, it remains parked and I ride the GRiSO.......

And how 'Fast' do you want to go? If you can hang on a GRiSO 1200 will probably sit at 180-200kph indicated for hour after hour! How long you'd stay out of gaol and whether you'd have a neck like a giraffe after ten minutes are probably more pertinent questions!


Well they have always called the GRiSO a gentleman's sport bike... 😉
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Edown101-23
Carlotto
Carlotto
Edown101-23


Posts : 43
Join date : 2020-03-02

The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:01 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
rick pope wrote:
Edown,  The advice given above is spot-on. If you want fast, buy a fast bike.  I'll gladly sell you my CBR-XX for far less than it would take to make the Grisso fast.  And it runs on regular gas and is dependable.  But alas, it remains parked and I ride the GRiSO.......

And how 'Fast' do you want to go? If you can hang on a GRiSO 1200 will probably sit at 180-200kph indicated for hour after hour! How long you'd stay out of gaol and whether you'd have a neck like a giraffe after ten minutes are probably more pertinent questions!


Well they have always called the GRiSO a gentleman's sport bike... 😉
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alanlemansiv
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio
alanlemansiv


Posts : 78
Join date : 2017-07-12
Age : 57

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PostSubject: Re: The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread....   The comprehensive GRiSO exhaust thread.... - Page 20 Icon_minitime1Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:11 am

Gents thanks for the feedback, I have no real desire to work the motor apart from maybe beetle map and making it handle via proper suspension setup and I certainly don't have any desire run with the go fast boy racers (at my age hurts too much if I fall off).
It was more of a general question which I am glad I asked as stated by Pete the 1200 Sport 2V motor has reached the end of it's development as a motor and I am so far quite happy with it's power and performance, especially after I have come from a mk4 lemans. Let's face it I think that 90-95 horsepower is quite ample as if I had a higher horsepower bike I would not like the idea of walking if busted by the fun police.
However I will probably ask some dumb questions along the way as this is the first fuel injected bike that I own.
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