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12425 - Established June, 2013 - all GRiSO, all the time...
 
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 8V overcooling project

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Brian675
rsmike
Kiwi_Roy
ecs
GregC
Pete Roper
Lazlokovacs
ratso88
OldMojo
Mbeach
Clancy
kiwi dave
Brent S
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Guzzi Cat
Oz1200Guzzi
bahamazoo
beetle
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ecs
GRiSO Capo
GRiSO Capo
ecs


Posts : 158
Join date : 2013-11-11

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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed May 13, 2020 8:12 am

how did you go? Success?
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Kiwi_Roy
Nibbio
Nibbio
Kiwi_Roy


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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri May 15, 2020 9:03 pm

Reading through the thread I was wondering what you guys are using for monitoring the temperature.
Does the ECU tell you the engine temperature?
I was wondering if it would be possible to use the air temperature instrument in the dash to monitor the oil temperature, it might top out at 99C though.
Beetle, I wonder if the air temperature as shown on the dash is used by the ECU or would it be strictly looking at the ECU for its temperatures?
I was thinking an owner might have a switch to change from Air temperature to oil temperature sensor.
Is there a chart for temperature vs resistance for the sensor as they used to have for the 2000 era bikes?
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beetle
GRiSO Capo
GRiSO Capo
beetle


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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri May 15, 2020 10:26 pm


The ECU monitors engine temperature and intake air temperature. The only way to monitor the engine temp is via some sort of OBD tool. The only two that work with Guzzi are GuzziDiag and ScanM5X. ScanM5X is good because it's an Android app, and you can use a phone. Only works with the 5AM ECU.

The ambient air temperature sensor is part of the dash electronics. It only for rider use. It's not used in any way by the ECU. You can see it via OBD too. However, having it display engine temperature would require re-programming the dash and ECU software. Or a 3rd party dash.

The stock ETS isn't all that accurate, due to its location. Meaning, the measured temperature isn't necessarily the actual engine temp. The accuracy of the actual sensor isn't in question. I relocated mine because I could. The 1400 barrels have a better location. There's a resistance v temperature chart in the service manual.

I monitor the oil temperature coming from the sump to the cooler.


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GregC
Montanarolo
Montanarolo
GregC


Posts : 10
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Age : 62

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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri May 15, 2020 11:18 pm

beetle,
On the last photo of you posted of your thermostat, on the inlet - 'IN' is a double banjo, one feed of the banjo is the oil hose from the sump, the other feed has the sensor connection for your temperature gauge, it then does a right angle turn and goes down to a brass connection that belongs to? I cannot figure out what that is.
Greg
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beetle
GRiSO Capo
GRiSO Capo
beetle


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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat May 16, 2020 12:22 am


No, it's not a double banjo. It's actually an optical illusion. That hose that looks like it's coming out of the banjo at 7 O'Clock is actually out-hose to the cooler. Here's a pic from another angle.



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Kiwi_Roy
Nibbio
Nibbio
Kiwi_Roy


Posts : 519
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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat May 16, 2020 5:49 am

Thanks for pointing me to the sensor information, its exactly the same as used in the original Marreli system eons ago.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] part No BC2730-ND Thermistor NTC 3.0k Radial
Lists at $1.70 each, of course you have to make your own holder.
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GregC
Montanarolo
Montanarolo
GregC


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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat May 16, 2020 10:09 pm

Thanks for the illumination Beetle, I had thought you had the temperature and a possible pressure sensor hanging off that connection due to space limitations (mind you, I could not find a double banjo like what I thought I saw, on the Aeroflow site).
I was hoping to install the thermostat while replacing the sump gaskets (Pete got me the oil and gaskets two weeks ago), but the thermostat is somewhere between Miami and Customs in Sydney.
Thanks again.
Greg.
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Brent S
Biondino
Biondino
Brent S


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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun May 17, 2020 3:36 pm

Had my GRiSO out on Sunday for for the first time in ages. Cool & crisp Melbourne day, about 15 degrees celsius. Decided to fully close the vents on the MG Cycle oil cover thingy that I have installed. About 45 minutes of suburban riding. Dipstick thermometer showed bang on 130 degrees C when I got home. Maybe the adjustable vents make more of a difference than I first thought, as the 130 degree reading surprised me a bit given the cool ambient temps.
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rsmike
Carlotto
Carlotto
rsmike


Posts : 31
Join date : 2019-07-10

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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed May 27, 2020 1:06 pm

Impressive engineering beetle.

Couple of questions

About the overcooling situation, and I am absolutely NOT trying to turn this into an oil thread, but ,is the specified 10W60 oil then really a good idea if the oil always overcooled, or is the oil always hot at exhaust valves and cooling everywhere else.

Also curious if the overcooling is just a 1200 issue or does it also affect the 1100 and what about the 850, I wonder if its oil temp is better with no cooler?
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed May 27, 2020 2:11 pm


Since the 8V is air/oil cooled, keeping the oil cool ("cool" being a relative term) is essential. As you said, the oil is always going to become super heated (again, relatively) around the exhaust. There's a relatively high volume of oil pumped around the somewhat smallish galleries around the exhaust valves, so the very expensive 10W-60 is needed, as lesser oils would either get vaporised or possibly leave crappy deposits.

The 2V engines are completely different animals. Also, the 1100 has a built-in thermostat. The 850 doesn't make enough of a bang in each pot to get dangerously hot.






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rsmike
Carlotto
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rsmike


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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed May 27, 2020 3:12 pm

👍, thanks
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GregC
Montanarolo
Montanarolo
GregC


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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun May 31, 2020 7:20 pm

Beetle,
Do you remember if you able to reuse any of the OEM oil hose?
Once the thermostat is installed, an oil change will require a hose from the bottom of the oil cooler to be removed as the oil cooler no longer drains back to the sump, correct?

My thermostat is still in Miami, Improved Racing have said that USPS international parcels will take four to eight weeks to deliver as USPS is prioritising medical supply deliveries during the CORVID19 outbreak.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun May 31, 2020 9:34 pm

GregC wrote:

Do you remember if you able to reuse any of the OEM oil hose?

Yes. I used the original pump "out" line. Normally it goes to the rear of the cooler. I used it as the line "in" to the thermostat.


Quote :

Once the thermostat is installed, an oil change will require a hose from the bottom of the oil cooler to be removed as the oil cooler no longer drains back to the sump, correct?


Incorrect. Oil from the cooler goes directly to the heads. It then drains back into the sump as per normal.

The oil system functions as follows:

When the oil is cold, and the thermostat is in bypass mode (open), ~90% of the oil goes straight in and out of the thermostat, straight to the heads. Some still flows to the cooler. When the oil gets hot enough to activate the thermostat, the bypass closes, and all the oil is sent via the cooler.

Simples!




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GregC
Montanarolo
Montanarolo
GregC


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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:29 am

Hi Beetle,
I meant that, after installation of the thermostat (bike runs fine) and it is time for the next oil & filter change, to drain all the oil from the bike (after the sump plug & filter are removed) would you also need to disconnect an oil hose from the oil cooler to drain it of its oil, as both oil lines (in & out) from the oil cooler are now attached to the thermostat (up near the right cylinder). Or does oil from the oil cooler not   drain back to the sump on a stock 8V?
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:42 am


I don't imagine all the oil drains from the cooler under normal circumstances. That, plus the amount of oil remaining in the thermostat and lines wouldn't amount to much.



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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:02 am

Yes, really, this obsession with both getting the old oil out and getting the *Absolutely* 'Correct' amount back in is bonkers.

Just change the oil, (The intervals are very conservative!) when the book says and make sure with the engine oil when it is changed it's half way between the 'Add' and the 'Full' marks on the stick.

JOB DONE!
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Brian675
Montanarolo
Montanarolo
Brian675


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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:06 am

No offence, as I'm no scientist, but who exactly says that the GRiSO is overcooled? I ride in the winter here in Canada and I don't see any of that white emulsion when I do an oil change (no garage, just out in the open). Just wondering as surely the engineers at Guzzi would have calculated this and I also have a Stelvio that also exhibits no problems with the oil being overcooled.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:52 pm

It's not rocket science. Measure the oil temperature. Even in the dry if the ambient temperature is below 15*C the oil will struggle to get above 80*C unless you are absolutely thrashing the machine mercilessly. The 8V doesn't have a thermostat in the cooling circuit and runs grossly cool most of the time. It doesn't worry me unduly but it is far from ideal. In wet conditions the oil temperature is often little more than Luke warm. Try putting your hand on the sump after a long, wet ride and you'll see.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:00 pm


I exactly say. I've measured a rapid 15 degree drop in oil temperature from idle to 100km/h. It takes quite a while for the oil being delivered to the heads to get back above 95 degrees.

I've never had mayo in my valve covers, either.


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kiwi dave
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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:09 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
It's not rocket science. Measure the oil temperature. Even in the dry if the ambient temperature is below 15*C the oil will struggle to get above 80*C unless you are absolutely thrashing the machine mercilessly. The 8V doesn't have a thermostat in the cooling circuit and runs grossly cool most of the time.

My very scientific solution is to block off a portion of the oil cooler with a selection of black ice cream plastic containers cut to various sizes. I have a oil temperature gauge to monitor the situation, seems to be working well.
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Brian675
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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:38 pm

I rode at 15C today and the sump was too hot to touch. I'll try to measure the oil temperature one day. Thanks for the information
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:15 pm


It's not the sump oil temperature that's the issue. Oil is pumped directly from the cooler heat exchanger to the heads. This is where the issue lies.

The oil in the sump has been heated by the heads and cylinders, and can be as hot as 130 degrees. What we are trying to do is keep the oil that's pumped into the heads at around 100 degrees.




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Brian675
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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:32 pm

I like the plastic ice cream container idea
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:48 pm

In ordinary riding in cooler weather the oil temperature won't get anywhere near 100*C. Summer isn't an issue at all. The oil for the cooling circuit it doesn't really matter as this is all the oil that has been through the cooler does. The problem is because the oil is shared between both cooling and lubrication circuits it brings the overall temperature down far too low and its moisture content can get very high. The lubrication oil for the top end, (Which also flows over the top of the combustion chamber.) comes up the front inner and rear outer studs, (From memory.).
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Doc.
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: 8V overcooling project   8V overcooling project - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:02 pm

Sorry I'm late to the party.
My 2009 Stelvio is the one Mark posted the photo of.
I built the Thermostat from scratch in April 2017, after fitting an Oil Temp Gauge, and being concerned about the low Temps the Oil ran at in our UK Climate.
Before fitting the Thermostat, I would run with the Cooler mostly covered in low temps, to keep the Oil up to a decent temp.

Without that, it would rarely get above 75-80°C if the temps were around 18°C or less, lower still if it rained as well.
I'd regularly find 'Mayo' in the Rocker covers.

I'm using a Trail-Tech Temp Gauge, it's got it's own Battery, so is on 24/7.
Mine's been running since late 2015, still on it's original Battery.
Sensor is Mounted in the Sump, in the unused Boss to the right of the Drain Plug.

I'd suggest fitting a Temp Gauge of some sort if you live in a cooler climate, the dipstick type is easiest.
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