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 GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out

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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:45 am

Hello everyone, sorry for barging in here with a technical problem. But I was hopeful someone here may have an idea what is wrong with my GRiSO. It's an 8v from 2009 with 10.000 kilometers on it.

I recently brought it to the dealer for a 10k service. Also had the flat tappets inspected, and they took a look at the starterfuse blowing, but failed to find a fix (they did charge me though, 820€ total) The first ride after I collected it, the bike broke down on the highway: the engine sound changed (louder, deeper and with a more pronounced pok-pok-pok sound) and it started shuddering rather violently left to right and max speed dropped to 70km/h. I obviously immediately stopped, and there was a lot of white smoke from the exhaust as I got off. And my beautiful exhaust has partially turned brown Crying or Very sad  Had it towed back to the dealer.

The dealer diagnosed the problem as one of the cylinders dropping out due to an electric issue. Their diagnostic tool (guzzidiag I assume) indicated there was a problem with bobine (ignition coil) 1 & 2, but they could see a spark from the sparkplug cable. So they replaced both cables (144€ tyvm, though they had told me it'd be 30€ initially so that was an unpleasant surprise, and they also seriously scratched one of the spark plug covers on the cylinder). I collected it and it ran horrible, backfiring and surging, a nightmare. Turned out they had installed a new map as a test as apparently they have so many maps to choose from they didn't know which one would be best (they had also installed a new map with the service.) They told me each guzzi is unique and needs a different map?? They installed yet another map (#68s) and the bike ran fine. Yay.

It ran fine for about 200km's, then I went on a diving trip and right after my fuelstop the same bloody problem again. One cylinder cutting out (or both working reduced, I can't tell) since I was still close by home (<5 km's) I limped back home. When I got off there was again lots of white smoke from the exhaust, I've been told its the catalyst overheating?

Anyhow, I went on my diving trip (someone turned around to pick me up) left the bike untouched for a week. And yesterday I checked all the connectors, cables, the sparkplugs, sparkplug cables, bobine cables etc.. everything looks just fine. I tried to start it, and after blowing several fuses it started, and to my surprise it sounded completely normal. Took apart the starter motor and sprayed ACF-50 in the starter solenoid to hopefully fix the B fuse blowing. Unfortunately it kept blowing the 15 amp B fuses so replaced it with a 20 amp fuse and all was well. Still very odd.

Went for a 40km testride and for the most part the bike rode mostly fine. It feels however a bit more sluggish in first gear accelerating from standstill. No failing cylinder, although on the way back while slowing down for a red light then accelerating when it unexpected turned green for a few seconds I thought the cylinder was going to fail. The sound changed a bit, the more pronounced pok-pok-pok sound was there for a short while, and the bike shuddered noticeably left to right. This lasted about 4 seconds, then the engine stabilized and the rest of the ride back was normal.

Has anyone heard of anything like this with the GRiSO 8v and perhaps any suggestion in what direction I should be looking? I've lost my faith in the dealer as I think they have little to no experience with the GRiSO and I fear they'll just replace parts one by one until they 'fix' the problem, which isn't healthy for my bankaccount.

I am told it may be a faulty starter/injector relay, is that a likely possibility?


ps. before I brought it in for the 10k service the bike ran absolutely fine.


Much thanks in advance.


Last edited by motor-timothy on Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:00 am

I'm guessing that you are still having a spark jump to ground issue.  Here's a tutorial on a quick and easy fix.

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2012 MOTO GUZZI GRiSO 1200SE

2013 MOTO GUZZI STELVIO 1200NTX - Orange Blossom Special
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:12 am

Would there be some (simple) way to check if this is the case? As the sparkplug cables are only 2 weeks old and the sparkplugs themselves 4 weeks, so I have a hard time accepting they are damaged so soon after replacement.
If they are, they must be the worst sparkplug cables in existence especially considering the ridiculous price.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:28 am

Yes, there is an easy way. Remove the little Moto Guzzi badge from the top of each cylinder head. Then remove the plastic, spark plug cable cover. Park your bike in a darkened garage, or test it at night. If the leads are jumping to ground, you will see and hear the spark arcing as you look down the spark plug tube.

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2012 MOTO GUZZI GRiSO 1200SE

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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:40 pm

Your 'dealer' is a complete fuckwit.

No they don't all need a different map. There aren't dozens of factory maps to choose from there are about four, two of which are awful. Also the factory tooling won't allow you retro-map to an earlier itteration.

I'd suggest you find someone who actually knows what they're doing before they do something seriously damaging to your bike, if they haven't already, like messing about with the throttle stop screws.

Just as a test have a look at the air bleed screws and see if they're both open. That's usually a pretty good pointer that the shop doesn't know what they're doing.

Oh, and your tappets are failing. No matter what you may of been told.

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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:41 pm

820€! Egads! I hope they installed rollers. If you paid that just for an inspection and service, I'd be very unhappy.

As well as the spark problem, I'd be concerned that your cat is buggered. When they turn brown it usually means it's been filled with raw fuel, and that will destroy them.

BTW, the 68S map is the best factory map.


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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:44 pm

I don't reckon €820 would cover a 'C' kit and installation. It would classify as daylight robbery though!
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:30 pm

Aren't you about an hour from Nijmegen? Why not take it to Teo Lamers there? They seem to have an excellent reputation.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:51 pm

Your 'dealer' is a complete fuckwit. wrote:
Took the words right out of my mouth. I wouldn't let them work on my bike for nothing after giving you that BS, not even to try to fix their own screw ups. Pete is right, they clearly are clueless.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:48 am

Thank you for all the helpful replies. I have no faith in the dealer, I'll only allow him to help in diagnosing the current problems but I feel browsing/asking in this forum and the dutch moto guzzi club forum is probably more helpful.
Send them an email this morning (they are unreachable by phone for some reason) about the problems, to which he replied this afternoon. Of-course he insisted the problem is a separate issue and has nothing to do with the service (which I admit is very much possible, but its still suspicious when a bike has no issues apart from the starter fuse blowing, and after service it becomes an unreliable nightmare). The tone of the mail was that I should be glad they replaced the cables without making profit on them or charging for installing them.
As I expected, he also wrote 'it must be the bobines (coils), bring it in and I'll replace them with new ones' he also reiterated that there were visible sparks from the spark-plug cables so they weren't replaced unnecessarily. Of course I have no intention of letting him replace the coils for 300€ or however outrageously expensive GRiSO coils are if I'm not 100% certain that is the issue.

I will check the sparkplug cables this evening for sparks, thanks for the explanation Steak.

@ Pete Roper: thank you for your suggestions. They inspected the tappets and could see some very light scratches. Not enough to get the roller kit under warranty according to them. Of course they neglected to take a picture of the tappets even though I specifically asked for that and even put that request in writing for them. Rolling Eyes
Regarding the air bleed screws. If I check them (I assume by putting in an allen key and see if I can close them), which one should I close if it isn't closed already, the left or right cylinder one? Or should I close both of them if they are both open?
And if I do this, won't I need to do a throttle body re-balance? Because I am most certainly unable to do this as I don't own a manometer.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:33 am

Okey, I spend some time on the bike this afternoon. Fed up with the fuses problem, I removed the Bosch startermotor + solenoid. After I drink enough liquid courage I'll take it apart and see if bending the tangs of the starter motor as described here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (7th post by midlifecrisis) will finally fix it.

I have some questions on the wiring to the solenoid, specifically if it is supposed to be wired like this:

First of all there is one (thick) battery cable that goes direct from the positive battery terminal to the solenoid, its about 30cm long and is attached with a nut. Behind it runs a thin cable that attached to the solenoid as well, and I was told this is the feed to the solenoid. This feed cable is attached to the solenoid by sliding over a piece of metal, however it is quite loose, or very lightly attached would be a better way to describe it. Just lightly pressing detaches it from the solenoid with ease. It also looks a little bit oxidized (mat grey) inside the connector. I suppose I should clean this with contact spray in any case, but can this feed cable be the cause of the fuses blowing?
There is also a strange piece of rope between the starter motor and the solenoid, just out of curiosity what is its purpose?

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And the 2 wires bolted to the frame behind the starter motor are the earth wires right?

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Then the air bleed screws. Rather than messing with them without knowing what will be the consequences, I took pictures of them. But it seems obvious even for my untrained eyes that both are very much open unless their closed position is actually supposed to like this (pics are upside down):

Left cylinder air bleed screw:
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Right cylinder air bleed screw:
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Finally (well, before removing the starter motor, obviously) I also tested the cables and coils for illegal sparks, I'll attempt to upload a movie here later on as I filmed it (I found out I'm extremely bad at looking at something and filming it at the same time, so most of the movie you can see everything except the spark plug cable) however the result was no sparks at all visible. I even sprayed the coils and spark-plug cables with water. I was almost disappointed not to see any sparks. Wink
The coils do have a fair bit of rust on the casing however, I'm not sure if that is alright on an 8 year old bike. Could rusty coils actually be the problem?

Coil (the other coil was slightly more rusty):
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Last edited by motor-timothy on Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:03 am

Clips of spark plug cables tested in semi-darkness with water sprayed on:

left cylinder:


right cylinder:




And for good measure here is the video of the white smoke from the exhaust after limping back home on one cylinder last week:

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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:41 pm

OK. The constantly blowing fuse on start up is a known issue caused by the inrush current as the circuit is completed. Clean all the connections at the battery and the main earth strap. Crimp the solenoid trigger spade so it's a tight fit and throw in a higher amperage fuse for starters. This though is the least of your problems.

Forget the coils, it is highly unlikely the coils or the HT leads are the problem with it running on one, the likely cause is the plug caps. These are very easily damaged by people who know no better prying away at the top of them to get them off the plug. They are quite soft and fragile and will rip at the elbow on the top where the HT lead joins them at a right angle. The spark then arcs to earth to the rocker cover or plug tube. You won't be able to see or hear this unless you remove the cover as stated previously and look. Looking in the dark will greatly improve your chances of seeing the spark if you are not familiar with the sound of a spark *Snapping* to earth. If you are unsure if the caps are OK just junk them and fit a set of NGK SB05E caps instead. The correct way to remove the plug caps is to lever them off from underneath with a long, thin screwdriver inserted through the cooling tunnel in the head just above the exhaust manifold.

There is no such thing as 'Light Scratching' on DLC. If there is even a change in colour of the surface of the tappet it shows the integrity of the part has been compromised. It would seem obvious to me that these people don't have a clue what they are talking about and I doubt very much whether they have inspected anything at all. I could tell for certain if you whip a rocker cover off.

With the air bleeds I don't want to to close one, you can't tune the bike properly without a manometer which I doubt you have, but just use a key to see if both are open by turning them a little bit from side to side and then put them back where they were.

Don't walk, RUN away from this shop and the thieving shaved ape in the workshop before they do something to irredeemably fuck your bike! The one good thing I can see from your pictures is that so far he hasn't got around to messing about with the throttle stop screw but I reckon it's only a matter of time.........

Pete

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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:33 pm

Thank you for your valuable input Pete Roper. I'll remove the rocker covers for you and make some pictures, would love to hear it if you can tell from what you can see whether they did or didn't do the inspection. In any case I'll follow your advise and won't let that shop touch my bike again.

With 'cover' you mean the small plastic strip on the cylinder head that hides the plug cap & part of the wire right? If so, I obviously had those removed to check for the sparks. I didn't see or hear any sparks anywhere, not at the plug caps nor the wire nor the coils. I admit it wasn't pitch black as it was during the daytime so I used a plastic sail to make it dark. I'll redo it when its night sometime this week when I get the startermotor back in.
If its in fact the plug caps (which were replaced 2 weeks ago, since they are a one piece with the spark-plug cables) wouldn't the cylinders misbehave constantly rather than randomly (twice in 7 or 8 rides so far)?
I've ordered a set of cables so I can use guzzidiag, hopefully that will bring some answers as well regarding whether they reset the TPS and see any errors etc.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:48 pm

No, by the rocker cover I mean the rocker cover. Not the plug lead cover. I've got to be able to see the cambox and rocker gear.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:12 pm

What I need is a picture like this but taken from directly above the rocker gear looking down.

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This is a roller tappet bike but for our purposes it makes no odds. What I need to see most of all is the front inner head studd nut and the small metal plate under the nut with a tang on it. That and a close up of the casting adjacent to it will tell me all I need to know.

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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:49 pm

Actually this shows what I need better. See the little plate on the upper stud? I need a close up of the nut, the plate and the casting around it.

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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:45 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
No, by the rocker cover I mean the rocker cover. Not the plug lead cover. I've got to be able to see the cambox and rocker gear.

Thanks for your description. I know what the rocker cover is, my question on the cover was meant in reply to:


"The spark then arcs to earth to the rocker cover or plug tube. You won't be able to see or hear this unless you remove the cover as stated previously and look. "

Since I removed the plug lead cover, I wondered what other cover I should have removed for the spark test?



Anyhow I'll take off the rocker covers and shoot some pics. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:46 am

Alright, I've done everything I planned to do. I removed the rocker covers, checked the air bleed valves and inspected the spark-plug cables and plug caps and I think I have identified the likely culprit of the cylinder failure.
As I've never taken any machine-part apart in my life, I suppose the old adage of "Moto Guzzi, making mechanics out of riders since 1921" is true (due to terrible dealers and incredibly vexing problems).

First of all I took off the sparkplug cables/plugs and rocker covers. Here are the pictures. I'm not 100% certain what I was supposed to photograph despite your best intended explanation. I'm just too unfamiliar with mechanical part names especially in english, hopefully these have what you need. (I can upload a larger version if needed):
As someone who has never seen the inside of a cylinder, is there supposed to be so much oil under the cover?

Left cylinder:

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Right cylinder:

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I then checked the air bleed valves, unfortunately both were (and are) open, as I could turn them clockwise. I'm not certain if I was able to turn them back into the exact same position as they were. Will this give issues? (I can't test it as the starter motor is off the bike pending a cleaning & better earth connection to hopefully fix the fuses problem)

Then the spark plug caps. I removed them (carefully) using the screwdriver method you explained. The left cylinder one went pretty easily. The right cylinder one took much more effort. The reason (I think) for this was a significant amount of rust in the canal attached to the rocker cover that holds the plug cap. Enough rust that I could clearly feel a 'ridge' where the rust started, and it went down on one side to the very bottom of the canal. I cleaned the canal from 90% of the rust with fine sandpaper and coated it with a light layer of ACF-50 (rust inhibitor).

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Both plug caps were covered in some sort of white grease obscuring any damage, so initially I didn't see it. But at the final moment I decided to clear some of the grease of the part most prone to tearing according to this forum, and this is what I saw: two small (almost invisible) tears on the right cylinder (the rusty one) plug cap that widen when I put stress on the cap.

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While I'm not 100% sure this is in fact the issue, I think it is incredibly likely that it is, no? I'd like to add that for 72€ each and damaged after 2 weeks of use these plug caps & cables must be the worst motorcycle product in the world. What incompetent company makes these infernal things? Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:48 pm

Well, you've been well and truly shafted because the camboxes have never been off and without taking the camboxes off you can't inspect the tappets. How do I know? Those strange little plates under the inner rear stud nuts are earthing tangs. They are there to rub against the inside of the rocker cover and provide a path for the electrons to safely get to earth if the plug caps have been buggered about with because otherwise they will earth through your knee! The rocker covers are insulated by their gaskets and o-rings, it's also the reason for the black plastic covers on the back of the rocker covers, a second line of defence! That is by the by though. Looking at those plates and the casting around them it is obvious the nut has never been undone. When you undo those nuts they always, without exception, spin those plates and the one on the left will slice into the alloy of the casting. This always happens and there is no way to prevent it. In doing the slicing it doesn't do any structural harm and since those castings get chucked away anyway when you rollerise it matters not a jot. In about 2011 they re-located the earthing tang to the two bolts in the center of the rocker retainer plate.

So, what these idiots charged you €820 for I have no idea? They didn't check your tappets, a half hour job, they didn't tune your bike and I'll bet my arse they didn't service it either!

As for the plug caps? They're fine as long as they aren't brutalised. As I said though just grab a pair of SB05E caps and use them. Then service and tune the bike correctly and see if your exhaust will still flow gas or if they've screwed that up completely as well.

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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:33 pm

Another despicable service agent caught out. I fart in their general direction.


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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:46 pm

Typical.
My bikes never sees the dealer, evaaaar!!
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:54 pm

Motor-Timothy,

You're one the right path to getting this sorted. Did you get in touch with any of the Dutch Guzzi guys ? I'm sure you'll find some eager motorheads willing to help tune up your bike.

Changing out the plug caps is simple & cheap & will eliminate alot of the running problems you're having.

Keep plugging away at it. They are awesome machines when sorted !
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:35 pm

Just as an addendum to my previous post I'd like to add that your pics are very good, clear and helpful. The damage to the plug caps, (Yes, they're damaged and that will be the source of the cylinder dropping out.) is typical of ones that have been grabbed and tugged at with pliers by a gorilla.

The 8V engine has been in production for ten bloody years! It's not like it's a brand new design that nobody has any experience on! The plug caps were identified as fragile very early on and an *Easy* and safe way of removing them was established very early on. The W5AM engine management system has been around even longer yet still it seems there are plenty of people working on these bikes for money, (I refuse to dignify them with the name 'Proffesional Mechanic') who have absolutely no idea on how to tune one of the most wonderfully simple systems ever devised!

I not only fart in their general direction I would strongly advise you to report them to whatever proffesional standards authority exists in the Netherlands as people like this are not just deceitful and dishonest but can be very dangerous. If they're lying about stuff like this and robbing people chances are they are doing seriously dangerous stuff as well!

Pete

PS. Yes, there is a shit-tonne of oil flying around up in the top end. The amount you see there is perfectly normal.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:33 am

Just ordered the NGK caps. 8€ for 2, wtf did I spend 144€ on. No
Just as a temporary stopgap, will wrapping the damaged plugcap with electric tape stop the misfire from happening?

And Pete are you 100% certain about the tappet inspection not having been done? I think I forgot to mention that they were supposed to inspect only 1 cylinder. Can you clearly see it hasn't been opened on both cylinder pictures?
I ask because, although they (may) have made mistakes at my expense, they didn't strike me as dishonest. In fact today I received a mail in which they asked me to bring the bike back in and they'd hook the bike up and check any errors to help find out what's wrong with the cylinder (I didn't tell them of my findings yet), and they offered to re-examine the starter fuse blowing issue for no cost. A bunch of crooks wouldn't do that I think.

Speaking of the starter fuse blowing. Today I took apart the starter motor, which was fairly intimidating to do if I'm honest. Unfortunately there were some sort of magnets attached to a rope and loaded by small springs, which exploded in all directions when I removed the axis. Took me a fair amount of effort to get everything back together (eventually I used tie-wraps to hold the springloaded magnets in place).
I cleaned and oiled everything and bend the earth-tangs so they make better contact with the casing.

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The good (and most surprising) thing is, after reassembling and installing it back on the bike, the bike somehow still starts.

The not so good thing is, that one my second start the 15 amp B fuse blew again. Grrrrr! Evil or Very Mad

I think I'll give up now, I really don't know what else I can do. I thought about buying this: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
But the guys on the dutch moto guzzi club forum warned me that it won't help with the fuses blowing, only with the no starts due to the ECU (mis)identifying a too low battery voltage? Is that indeed the case?
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GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out
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